Affordable Elephant Gun?

375 Ruger will handle anything that walks the earth. A good friend that has been hunting in Africa for more than ten years was recently fortunate enough to be drawn for a cull elephant. Although he has both a 375 H&H and 375 Ruger, along with a 450 Nitro double he did not have time for the aperwork to bring his own rifle. He used tge outfitters CZ in 375 H&H which worked flawlessly.
Now if you really want "afordable" his 375 Ruger chambered Mosberg Patriot was less than $400. He says it actually shoots better than a custom built Remington 700 in 375 H&H that cost him three times or more.
 
How about a bolt action cartridge that pretty much duplicates the old .450/400 Nitro Express ballistics? It's about 2000 ft-lbs shy of your 6000 ft-lb goal, but it does launch a 400 grain projectile at 2000-2100 fps and is made from really easy to find brass. If that sounds appealing to you then do what my buddy did and make a .400 Whelen. You could do it for under $1000 by finding an old Rem M700 .30-06 or .270, send it off to JES Reboring and have it cut rifled to .411 diamter, and if necessary have it set back and chamber recut. If you do the last part try to find a reamer using Michale Petrov's specifications.

Here is how his rifle is shooting.

Snellstrom said:
Click to expand...
 
I have owned a numebr of 458s in the past. With the right barrel the 458 is an excellent caliber for cast bullets. BUT going "really fast" with cast bullet is a dream that never seemed to work out. About 2300 seems to be the top velocity thresh-hold I have ever seen with really good accuracy from cast bullets. Every now and then I found a load in a 30-06 that would do 1.5 MOA at around 2450 to 2500, but faster never worked out (for me anyway)

However with "elephant weight bullets" (450 to 500 grains) you will not exceed that level anyway.

For energy, the 5000 FT LB level is easy to find with the 458 and the 458 Lott. Getting to 6000 FT LB for under $1000 is highly unlikely. You can't get to that level with cast 45 cals in my experience and that means going to a larger bore, usually a wildcat 47 cal or a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery. You go from about $850 to $1000 in the 5000 FT LB level to about $3000 at the 6000+ level.
 
How about a bolt action cartridge that pretty much duplicates the old .450/400 Nitro Express ballistics? It's about 2000 ft-lbs shy of your 6000 ft-lb goal, but it does launch a 400 grain projectile at 2000-2100 fps and is made from really easy to find brass. If that sounds appealing to you then do what my buddy did and make a .400 Whelen. You could do it for under $1000 by finding an old Rem M700 .30-06 or .270, send it off to JES Reboring and have it cut rifled to .411 diamter, and if necessary have it set back and chamber recut. If you do the last part try to find a reamer using Michale Petrov's specifications.
Click to expand...

Colonel Whelen asserted the very small remaining portion of the .30-06's 17° 30′ angled shoulder was likely to cause potentially dangerous headspace difficulties
Click to expand...

This was taken from wikipedia, I read the very same thing in james howe's books, it failed to gain popularity at the time. Back when extremely precise work and home gunsmiths this would have posed a problem. At the time, they had the rimmed .405 winchester, this was redundant and not worth the trouble.
 
Thanks for the help! Looks like the .375 Ruger might be the best/most affordable option. Any ideas on what kind of power I could expect? With a max load about how fast could I get a 350-375 grain hardcast going?
 
Just a bit of thinking says that you can probably reach about 2,000 but I'd not want to push it beyond that, I don't think.

You need to talk to the cast boolit experts.
 
I realize you want a big whopping bullet moving fast, for the fun of it.

I'd probably go .45-70, so that I could have a lever action and use it for bear defense while camping in the north country.

One of the most successful hunters to bring down an elephant was W.D.M. Bell- who dropped over 1000 elephants in his time. The largest number were dropped with his round of choice: 7x57 Mauser [.275Rigby if your gun was made in England], firing a 173gr metal jacketed round.

WDM Bell's elephant hunting

So, My 1895 Chilean Mauser has a solid track record in elephant hunting- and it kicks less than what you are describing, and costs less to feed.

Placement, placement, placement.


Yet, the big ones are FUN to shoot. Pick and enjoy!
 
> 6000 foot pounds ... 500 Jeffery, 500 nitro, .458 Lott

The .500 Nitro is a sweetie, but you're looking at a double rifle for it. The doubles are highly developed, low production specialist equipment and carry corresponding price tags. For a single hunt it would be hard to justify.

The Jeffery is a proven cartridge with a lot of history. Many rifles from "fine" to "exquisite" have been built for it.

The Lott is more recent, but a proven performer. There are probably more Lott rifles than the first two put together, and if you have a rifle with an H&H-length action, most of them can be rebarreled to .458 Lott without undue trouble. For that matter, you can order a brand new rifle in that caliber and have it shipped to your favored FFL.

The cost/benefit ratio is heavily in favor of the .458 Lott. Though that's usually not a factor in how people justify a new rifle purchase...

---

As an aside, if you decide to go for a double, prices vary widely by caliber. The .470s and .500s carry a considerable premium due to their popularity, while some rifles chambered for some of the "orphan" cartridges may be steeply discounted.

There are ammunition makers who will make anything you might need, machining the cases out of brass bar stock if it comes down to that. Yes, they're expensive, but the price is negligible compared to the cost of a hunt.If you find an otherwise-good deal, don't pass on it just because it's chambered for some obsolete or wildcat cartridge.
 
Bell was an ivory hunter, and yes he did shoot a LOT of elephants with small caliber (for elephant) rifles. He didn't like the heavy recoil of the big calibers. He did use them, on occasion, but today is remembered for taking many elephants with 6.5mm, 7mm, .303 British, and some other "small" rifles. For some time, he was quite fond of the .318 Westly-Richards.

Bell is an example of what can be done, not what should be done. And, its also worth remembering that Bell left Africa after falling into serious disfavor with several African governments. The words "poaching" and "arrest" were apparently being used, and Bell "retired".

Another good source of information on taking elephants, from a different point of view is Capstick. Read "Death in the Long Grass" or his other works, I think its worth your time. Capstick did like his .470 but he shot a lot of elephants working as a cropping officer, using a Win M70 in .458 Winchester. (the govt supplied the ammo). Capstick describes numerous successes, and some failures with the .458, its worth reading.

Somewhere around 25 years ago, I got a custom Mauser in .458 WinMag. Built on a 1909 Argentine action. Found it at a gun show, always wanted a .458, and worked a trade. Spent the next couple years hunting the shows for brass, and got a couple hundred new Winchester cases.

My Mauser would not be a good Dangerous Game Rifle, it has a thumbhole stock. Somebody was building a nice mountain rifle, then put a .458 barrel on it. The gun is ridiculously light for a .458 (approx. 7.5lbs without scope), and to date, I've never shot "elephant" loads in it. Nor any factory ammo (kick and cost, waay too much for me)

I shoot (mostly) 400gr cast slugs at approx. 1800fps or so. recoil is acceptable to me, its a lot of fun, and the slugs will go a couple FEET deep in a tree, so I think they'll do just fine outside of Africa (where I'm never going to be going, anyway...)

I have loaded some jacketed 400s to 2100fps, and the recoil was more than I cared for, Also, the bullets I used were for the .45-70, and at 2100fps, expanded..violently. Like varmint bullet violently.

The .458 Lott is essentially the .458 Win Mag, with a longer case which allows enough room for powder to actually deliver the velocity that was claimed for the .458 Win (500gr), which the Win didn't quite produce in the field.

If all you want to do is throw big chunks of lead around, the .458 Win will do that and do it through any standard length action. The .45-70 in a suitable rifle will do it too but even in the strongest rifles, the .45-70 tops out about 300fps slower than the .458 Win's capability. If velocity is your goal look at the .460 Weatherby, and a couple others. But, open you wallet, wide, and have a good medical support team on standby! :rolleyes:
 
Bell is an example of what can be done, not what should be done.
Click to expand...

That is the one greatest thing that I have ever heard here. My daughter's guy insists on attaching a gasoline engine to his bicycle so he can make a daily fifteen mile commute. He can hook it up, but he can't make an engine Too small for a lawn mower haul him.

Hopefully, I can remember that phrase.
 
Just asking here, sooo. Have you ever shot many rounds thru a big thumper before?
Say 10, 15 or 20 rounds? Sobering times ahead.
 
many years ago, I read an article about converting a siamese mauser to fire 45-70. I read that and coveted it. I'd still love to get my hands on a bolt made for it, the most versatile elephant sized gun available.
 
"...under about $1,000..." Not a chance. And that .500 Jeffery runs about $10 a shot. About $6 per shot for .458 Win. You ever shoot anything like those?
Guy came in the shop, years ago, who was going to Africa. He had decided he must have his own .458. He bought a Win M70 African and one box of ammo(BNIB brass ran about $50Cdn per 20). Picked it up on a Friday evening. Happy as a clam. The next day, he came back with the rifle, 18 loaded rounds and 2 empties looking to sell.
Oh and elephants have been killed with one shot using both a 7mm Mauser and a .303 British. And you can't bring trophy ivory into the U.S. Plus the hunt will cost you in 5 figures plus, plus, plus. Starts at roughly 30 grand USD plus around $15,500US trophy fee and another $620US in taxes on the trophy fee alone(that's Zimbabwe. Changes by country). And all that is from a discount hunt seller.
"...wanting to lob really big chunks of lead around..." Use a 12 gauge shotgun and shoot slugs. Cast bullets are not for hunting big mean critters.
 
My favorites are the big bores. From the 375s, the various 45s, and up to 69 caliber.

I can handle most of them with no trouble, but I am older (a lot older) than when I bought my first one.

The felt recoil with the 458 Win Mag is different than with the 460. Much sharper. That is the reason I don't have one now. I can shoot the 460 standing for maybe 10 shots at the most in one setting, but that one setting is over 4-5 hours. I fill in the gap with smaller stuff.

I have never shot a 45 or larger caliber from a bench...........only standing either freehand or with a stick. Accuracy is definitely minute of elephant, but I have shot one 5 shot group that measured 1 3/4" at 100 yds with the 460. It can do better, but I can't with iron sights.

I have never shot factory ammo from them other than 3 shots of 460 ammo that a buddy provided that he was using in his.

I paid him for them ($120/20=$6.00 per shot). He won't let me reload his, but I do mine. I do shoot cast bullets with all of them, but still 500 gr is 500 gr.

I cast 0.690" round balls and shoot them in 12 ga brass shells. They are effective.

I have a 58 caliber BP rifle and it can be loaded to the uncomfortable stage as well.

I will never venture to a place to shoot very large dangerous game, but I do like the rifles capable of taking them. There will come a time when I can't do it any longer, so I enjoy shooting them for today.
 
Plus the hunt will cost you in 5 figures plus, plus, plus. Starts at roughly 30 grand USD plus around $15,500US trophy fee and another $620US in taxes on the trophy fee alone(that's Zimbabwe. Changes by country). And all that is from a discount hunt seller.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine puts together African safaris, mostly in Cameroon. His elephant hunts run right at $100K........plus airfare, trophy fees, etc.

"...wanting to lob really big chunks of lead around..." Use a 12 gauge shotgun and shoot slugs.
Click to expand...

And for the full retina-detaching effect, use a light single shot shotgun.
 
Big chunk of lead?
Fast?
Cheap?
Elephant?

Pick two.
I don't think you'll be getting all four.

I'd say go digging through the used racks for a .458 WM. It's more than the average person can handle, and would be a very good lesson in "heavy and fast". (...Even though it's fairly slow by big boomer standards.)

This was taken from wikipedia, I read the very same thing in james howe's books, it failed to gain popularity at the time. Back when extremely precise work and home gunsmiths this would have posed a problem.
Click to expand...
That quote from wikipedia is popular myth, and just a bunch of BS. The original .400 Whelen was an 'improved' cartridge.
It used a blown-out case body that did leave enough room for a shoulder and safe headspacing.

Long story short, RCBS made their own interpretation of .400 Whelen at some point, but used the standard taper of a .30-06 case. THAT version had (and still has) serious issues with an inadequate shoulder and cases being pushed too deeply into the chamber.
I would provide a link to a page where you can read the history, as written by the man that tracked down original dies (improved style) as well as very early RCBS dies (standard taper), and obtained original correspondence about the .400 Whelen's design; but the site owner seems to have closed up shop and gone to a place-holder website.
 
Maybe you should fire a grossly overpowered rifle before you go shopping. Have you ever fired a more conventional magnum rifle such as a 300-340WBY or a RUM of sorts to get a feel for real recoil before you buy.

You live in MT so you must know someone with one, who might enjoy watching your reaction to serious firepower, who would let you shoot five rounds through theirs. If you
can accommodate the recoil of a 340WBY, or a 338 Lapua with a hot 300GR handload you might be able to use a dangerous game rifle as a fun gun.

I'm curious what you end up with. So fill us in.

Where are generally in MT?

I have passed my Weatherby on to my son in Billings. I have owned and reloaded for several magnums, but 340 was the biggest. Anything based on the 378 will even more grossly overpowered. The 340 could use 90+ gr. of some powders, but 378's can use over 120 gr. I haven't had the pleasure of shooting one of those.

I was and still am fascinated by grossly overpowered rifles, but never used one as range toy. I seem to gotten over them. I hunted a couple of times with a 300WBY. It was very effective. But all of these type rifles are hunting tools first and foremost. IMO.
 
FrankenMauser said:
I would provide a link to a page where you can read the history, as written by the man that tracked down original dies (improved style) as well as very early RCBS dies (standard taper), and obtained original correspondence about the .400 Whelen's design; but the site owner seems to have closed up shop and gone to a place-holder website.
Click to expand...

That would have more than likely been Michale Petrov, he passed away around three years ago. He did some very extensive research on the .400 Whelen, and he loaned my buddy his personal reamer to cut the chamber on his rifle.

Found this: Finegunmaking.com
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top