Advice on wear on S&W revolver

The real issue I want fixed with the model 58 is the damage to the notches on the cylinder. I don't know how it happened, but they're all peening, with one being enough to make the cylinder move in lock up. I want SW to service that more than anything, and hopefully touch up the bluing.

For the crane, it's simple to pull the screw out...there's just a single screw holding it in. I'm not talking about removing the ejector rod, that looks like it's too much for me right now.

I checked the wear I pointed out on the bluing, it's not anything on the metal, I could get nothing off the metal. It looks like the bluing itself is wearing VERY quickly. I look up photos of guns older then mine (these are all less than 10 years old in manufacture date, and were bought new within the last year) and they look to be in better condition than mine.

I don't spin the cylinders. I don't run hot loads - I only fire handloads from the 41, the 44 has only fired factory loads. I've never dropped them, hit them or forced them open/closed. I've no idea why the one notch on the 41 is peened so badly. Maybe a friend spun the cylinder, but I thought I kept an eye on them at the range.

As for sending them to smith, what is the downside of sending them in? My understanding is smith covers shipping, and frankly I'll trust the gunsmiths at smith more than any non-smith gunsmith. Is my logic faulty?
 
First, your loads are too hot, and you are apparently using lead bullets. Those velocities can be obtained in a revolver only with loads that are over-max in my loading manuals, and lead bullets at those pressures will spread into the barrel-cylinder gap. That is causing the lead buildup in the barrel-cylinder gap and on the cylinder (the shiny stuff is lead, and possibly removal of blue in your cleaning attempts).

Second, you are apparently rapid firing. That is causing the peening in the cylinder notches as the cylinder stop has to bring to a stop a big cylinder loaded with heavy cartridges. It will eventualy cause timing problems.

That type of shooting is equivalent to "red lining" an automobile engine and most folks would consider it abuse of the gun. If you think another brand of revolver will stand up better to your loading and firing techniques, you would be better off trading in the S&W's and buying something else.

Jim
 
Hi James,

Thanks for the reply: Yes, the 1600 FPS load I've trended away from, a friend prefers hot loads and did those. I've got 400 rounds of 1450 FPS or so, but have not fired it much. I DID fire factory load cast ammo, and there is still SOME residue of that on there, but that's not what I'm seeing on the cylinder I think. My hand loads are Hornady XTP hollow point rounds.

But that only accounts for the 41 magnum, the 44 magnum has been firing jacketed SWC rounds only.

I'm not rapid firing either - I'm pulling the hammer back, firing. Pulling hammer back, firing. Not that quickly.

So again - do you think sending this to S&W is an reasonable thing to do?

Thanks.
 
After looking at your photos I would say you have absolutely no problem with that gun. I have been shooting blue N frames for 30 years. Every one of them shows the same "marks" as yours. I have a Model 57 from the 70s that shows the exact same fouling patterns as yours. That is lead and powder fouling. It is difficult to remove without also removing some of that gorgeous bluing. If you use anything more abrasive than a solvent on a shop rag you will thin the bluing down in time. I've done it and seen others do done. Don't mess with it. Everything you're seeing is on the surface of the metal. If you can't stand the look of it then sell it. Also if your loads are running 1500 to 1600 fps they are HOT. More fouling. More wear and tear on the gun. 1250 fps loads are all you need. I used to work on S&Ws years ago and they are very strong revolvers but their lives can be shortened with very much use of heavy loads. Things will stretch and wear. Most of these can be fixed. Think of it like an engine. Full throttle performance is great fun but it's not free. If that gun were mine I would shoot it and enjoy it and clean as well as I could and not worry about it not looking like a new S&W anymore.
 
Rampant Android: I may be wrong about this but it seems that, no matter how many posters have concluded that there's nothing to worry about in terms of any excessive wear issues on your Smith revolvers, just normal "wear and tear" marks and blemishes, you seem to be bound and determined to conclude that there's something more serious at play. Maybe your photos don't accurately reflect the concerns you have?

In any event, if I were you, given that you seem certain that there are conditions requiring rectification, I'd have Smith & Wesson take a look at your revolvers; if for nothing else than to put your mind at ease.
 
My question for Android is whether, if S&W tells you there is nothing wrong, you will believe them. It sounds to me like you believe there is a serious problem. There may be, but none of us see it in the pictures. Before going to the trouble and expense of sending it back to S&W is there a gunsmith or other knowledgeable person in your area that you trust? Maybe he will see something we are missing.

Jim
 
Yep, I would check the gun for endshake issues but everything else is pretty normal including the wear on the recoil shield and the lead and carbon fouling on the forward edges of the cylinder. In that case, vaporized lead exits the barrel/cylinder gap during firing. Some settles in the edge of the cylinder and re-hardens. It's difficult to remove because it is essentially soldered on. A patch wet with solvent and a lot of elbow grease will remove it. I would be more concerned about the the handloads. Even with 170 grain nominal bullets, they are, in all likelihood, at or more likely, over maximum, especially if you are clocking those velocities on a chronograph when shooting them from a 4" M58. Peening of the cylinder stop notches is generally caused by quick dbl. action shooting but can also occur when the fit of the cylinder stop to the stop notches gets a little sloppy. Once it gets a little slushy, you're looking at chronic, progressive wear. Guess what causes that?

I'm assuming that you know how to and have checked carry up on both guns and it is good on all chambers. If you haven't checked, do it and let us know.

Bruce
 
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A small amount of peening in the cylinder stop notches as well as a bit of rotational play at full lockup is completely normal for a S&W revolver and not really anything to worry too much about, all of my S&W revolvers both old and new have the same thing. The only commonly encountered revolvers which should have absolutely zero rotational play at full lockup are older Colts due to their double-pawl lockup.

So long as the cylinder stop is still clicking into its notch before the hammer falls and the rotational play is not excessive, you gun is still within spec.

As to the quality of S&W bluing "suffering", the issue is more the color than the durability. Bluing on newer S&W revolvers is more black in color than older ones were because the EPA doesn't like the older bluing chemicals that S&W used in years past. Because of this, S&W has switched to different chemicals that produce a slightly different color which many don't find as aesthetically pleasing as the older ones.
 
Bluing on newer S&W revolvers is more black in color than older ones were because the EPA doesn't like the older bluing chemicals that S&W used in years past.
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Actually, S&W uses a completely different bluing system now than in the past. Until the late 1970's, they used the Carbonia system which employs ovens which heat the parts to high temperatures in conjunction with other oils and ingredients. After the change over, they used then and continue to use today, a conventional hot salts bath system. I have yet to see anybody's hot salts blue which matches either the color itself or depth of color of the Carbonia Blue. The degree of polish has zero to do with the color difference.

:(

Bruce
 
Have you ever, late at night, just before sleep, thought about what goes on inside your car engine? Or your arteries?
 
I have yet to see anybody's hot salts blue which matches either the color itself or depth of color of the Carbonia Blue. The degree of polish has zero to do with the color difference.
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While I've not personally examined any of their work, I've heard that Ford's Refinishing can get color pretty close to Carbonia Blue.
 
My question for Android is whether, if S&W tells you there is nothing wrong, you will believe them.
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First and foremost, I'm going to say this: when see damage on an item that costs a fair amount of money, I look into what might be wrong, and what is needed to fix it. If my car gets scratched, I get annoyed. If it makes strange noises, I look into it. Please, drop the comments about wondering if I'm about to have a heart attack already, please.

What I'm most worried about, and I'll keep saying this, is the cylinder rubbing against the back of the barrel, causing the cylinder to scratch, and the metal of the barrel to visibly break apart at its edge. I have checked, and there is a bent ejector rod which is something that needs to be dealt with. Period, end of story.

On the notches, the 41 magnum has more wear than the 44. Granted, I've fired the 41 more and fired it with hot loads (a friend loaded those. He's obsessed with hot loads. I asked him to tone it down, and I need to double check what speeds his tamer rounds are clocked at. They're still a little hot though if memory serves, 1400 FPS or so.
 
First off, I don't truly see anything that is "damage". All I see are normal wear marks I look for when checking a used revolver. The extent of the "damage" can give you a rough indication of how many rounds the revolver has seen. (See also the ejector rods: if the finish is mostly intact = low round count. Worn to silver = high round count.)

If the carbon buildup was as bad as you indicate in your first post, that would explain a lot of the rubbing. The tolerances are relatively tight between the cylinder and forcing cone. It does look like you have some lead buildup on there; have you tried hooking it with a pick to see if it breaks off? If not from buildup, you could have some endshake issues with the .44.

Edited: Just re-read the last post. The cylinder can push far enough forward to contact the forcing cone when closing? Something is out of spec.

Sounds like your friend providing your reloads uses "Max" data for starting loads. I would stop using that ammo PRONTO! I was given some ammo once from a reloader who liked to do that and spent a lot of time knocking it apart for the good bullets.

Oh, and for your first picture, that drag mark is the rear locking pin on the cylinder. The correct term escapes me at the moment. It's spring loaded so it will drag like that no matter what. There's nothing to be done to avoid it except not shoot your revolvers.
 
If the cylinder is rubbing against the forcing cone, you should be having problems with the cylinder binding after a fairly low number of rounds without cleaning (50 rounds or less). If you're not having such a problem (you haven't mentioned that you are) then it is extremely unlikely that the cylinder is contacting the forcing cone. When the revolver is at full lockup (hammer down, trigger held completely to the rear), can you see daylight through the barrel-cylinder gap when you hold the gun up against a light when all chambers are lined up with the barrel? If you can, then the cylinder is not rubbing the forcing cone.

As to the bent ejector rod, how are you manipulating it when ejecting spent cases? If you're giving it a good hard rap and hitting it at an angle, you can eventually bend it. I, personally, prefer Massad Ayoob's Stressfire method of ejecting empty cases because it minimizes the risk of bending the ejector rod.

Finally, I'd advise you to stop shooting your friend's reloads. Most of us here won't shoot anyone's reloads but our own because we don't know for sure how they're loaded. Frankly, your friend's reloads sound as if they will likely accelerate wear on your gun, if not be outright unsafe. Were I you, I'd either take up reloading myself or stick to factory ammo.
 
Sounds like your friend providing your reloads uses "Max" data for starting loads. I would stop using that ammo PRONTO! I was given some ammo once from a reloader who liked to do that and spent a lot of time knocking it apart for the good bullets.
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Keep in mind, this thread covers two guns.

41 mag: Notch wear/damage, bluing stain/buildup/wear.
41 mag: Shot hot loads

44 mag: Damage to forcing cone, cylinder, bent rod, similar bluing wear.
44 mag: only shot factory loads, no hot loads.

The bent ejector has nothing to do with hot loads, and I will push S&W to fix it.

As to the bent ejector rod, how are you manipulating it when ejecting spent cases? If you're giving it a good hard rap and hitting it at an angle, you can eventually bend it. I, personally, prefer Massad Ayoob's Stressfire method of ejecting empty cases because it minimizes the risk of bending the ejector rod.

Finally, I'd advise you to stop shooting your friend's reloads. Most of us here won't shoot anyone's reloads but our own because we don't know for sure how they're loaded. Frankly, your friend's reloads sound as if they will likely accelerate wear on your gun, if not be outright unsafe. Were I you, I'd either take up reloading myself or stick to factory ammo.
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For the ejector rod, maybe - but that gun has less than 500 rounds through it. It took me a while to get used to 44 magnum and be accurate. I do not point the gun straight up to eject casings, given the rangemasters would probably kick me out.

For the loads, I've learnt my lesson, I know. What is the hottest load you'd recommend? Factory ammo is pretty much out given 41 magnum is rare.
 
For the loads, I've learnt my lesson, I know. What is the hottest load you'd recommend? Factory ammo is pretty much out given 41 magnum is rare.
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Something under published maximum from a reputable reloading manual. As for factory ammo, sources like Georgia Arms and Reed's Ammunition have .41 Magnum ammo for reasonable prices.

http://georgia-arms.com/41remmag.aspx

http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=70

If factory ammo is still completely out of the question, I'd recommend taking up reloading yourself rather than relying on your friend.
 
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