Advice for a friend that carries knives ONLY

[MEDDAC19]

So let me get this straight....

If you came upon someone beating the life out of someone on the ground, you could not draw you gun to intervene on behalf of the victims life?
You could only jump in with your hands to stop the 300 pound attacker?

Wouldn't this senario really play out this way? You arrive at the scene of the beating, draw your pistol, and tell the brute to stop. If he goes for a weapon you would then be totally justified to shoot him. He has a weapon and the shoot is clean.

If he does not stop beating the crap out of the guy or starts to come after you, I would then think you would be justified also. Now, a large man with the full knowledge that you are armed, continues to beat the victim or tries to beat you down. I don't know who would not be in fear of their life or the victim's life at this time. If it involved a jury months later I would also think that they would be on your side, even if a overly zealous DA tried to press charges.

Now if you are the guy getting beat silly, and you CC, at some point you should be justified to save your bacon. I would think that at a last resort your defense would be, he tried to take my gun and kill me so I had to use deadly force. As to the guy being able to now use a gun against you if he does and you let him....

If you do CC you should not have let things escalate to the point that you would need to shoot the guy. If it still got to that point then you either take a woopin' or hope your peers show some compassion.

 

[Whitefalls]

Scenario: You are walking in the city along a public street and you see one man beating another man with open hands in the alley.

You wisely evaluate the situation (who knows, it could be a self defense situation, a mugging, or an undercover cop) and determine that a BG is mugging and beating another man.

You take cover, draw and aim your pistol. You shout a command "STOP."

The BG stops and and turns toward you. Do you shoot him? Say you do shoot him.

He (or the state on his bahalf) can claim self defense and you are the assailant if, when you draw your gun, he stopped his imminent threat severe of bodily harm or death. First, how could you tell that there was threat to someone's life. Second, the BG stopped the threat when you shouted the command. Third, was this the LEAST amount of force necessary to stop an unarmed assailant, who stopped when you shouted the command?

This whole scenario changes if the BG has any weapon in his hand, and that's the whole point. I think you have a much greater chance of prosecution in the unarmed situation than in the armed situation.

I'm afraid that my friend will escalate what would otherwise be a non-lethal conflict into a leathal conflict by carrying his knife.

If he stops when you yell stop, of course you're wrong for shooting him, and I certainly wouldn't shoot him IF HE STOPS. If he charges you, then you should shoot him, as he has refused to stop and is now in the process of attacking you. I'd be surprised to see a DA press charges against you in a situation like that (not the response you gave in the example, the response I just gave.)

If you have a case that shows otherwise, by all means lets hear it. Theres just an awful lot of talk about what DA's "will" do without ever any evidence that they ever do that. People saying aiming for the head will get you charged, this will get you charged, that will get you charged, if the attacker is unarmed you'll get charged. The list goes on and on... some hard evidence or past cases would do a great deal to shed some light on the actual truth.

Also, as a carrier of a concealed weapon, seems to me there is no such thing as a "beating that isn't life threatening". If you allow yourself to be pummeled because you think a fist attack isn't justified use for deadly force (which I would disagree with), what exactly do you plan to do when you get knocked silly and the attacker finds a gun on you?

 

[DanV1317]

If you are in a fight and you feel you are being faced with a threat of extreme and severe bodily injury, you are justified. Just beacuse it is a fist fight, doesn't mean you can't be killed.

A teacher of mine was a local cop before his teaching career. He said a guy on their force got into a fight with a guy who they had a warrant for. The guy shoved the Police officer and then punched him in the face. The police officer fell back and hit his head on a piece of metal, killing him instantly.
Do you still think a fist fight is not capable of involving deadly force?

The guy then had murdered added to his list of offenses.

 

[wayneinFL]

Do what you must to survive, and worry about what to tell the jury later. That's what a good lawyer and expert witnesses are for.

That said, a gun and knife are both lethal weapons and must only be used when you are countering lethal force. A knife is just less effective in most circumstances than a gun, IMO.

you see one man beating another man with open hands in the alley

With his hands open? I'm picturing a slap fight.

Seriously though, if a man is beating someone and then charges you, knowing you have a gun, you'd better run or shoot him. If someone is beating you and you could be incapacited to the point he could get your gun, you'd better shoot him. Happens to cops all the time. A cop gets beaten and is executed with his own gun. Or he gets beaten and shoots his attacker and is cleared when his lawyer brings in a police instructor to explain a cop is trained not to be beaten to death or to get his gun grabbed.

 

[hso]

Tell your buddy that the gun, like the knife he carries, is another tool to help him protect himself. In some situations the gun is a better tool, in many others it's equivalent, in some the knife is better, but without the gun he has no choice. The same for a baton or spray.

I train with gun, baton, knife and empty hand. I've been attacked on the street before. In all those cases I never had the time to draw any weapon and what was in my head and what my body "remembered" from training saw me through. If there had been numerous attackers or I had had more warning I would have preferred to have been able to respond with more force all the way up to firearms. I want options.

 

[Netzapper]

You know, one of the primary reasons I started carrying is a scenario that happened to two of my friends several years ago: They're gay, and a couple, and were walking down a very busy street together carrying groceries and walking their dog. Out of nowhere, one of my friends gets sucker punched by a passing guy. The guy and his five friends then proceed to beat the ever-loving crap out of my friend. When his boyfriend attempted to stop the attack, they began beating him, too. Finally, one of the dozen or so people watching this called the cops (who didn't show up for about fifteen minutes), and screamed this at the attackers. They ran away shortly thereafter. One of my friends was left with a fractured orbital, severe bruising, a concussion, two broken ribs, cuts and contusions everywhere; the other was left with severe bruising, a broken mandible, and a mild concussion. And their attackers were never caught.

In this circumstance, I would most definitely have drawn a weapon to stop the attack (even if they weren't my friends). I cannot possibly hope to end an attack by six people with only by bare hands. If they didn't stop after verbal commands ("Stop! I have a gun! Stop!"), I probably would have dropped the hammer on one of them.

It's a little more gray-area when folks aren't outnumbered. But, I have a general rule: if I'm afraid that somebody is going to kill or maim me, I'm going to do everything in my power to survive. I'd prefer to spend ten years in prison for a 2nd degree murder charge than not have a life to spend anywhere.

 

[leadcounsel]

Netzapper:
The law in Colorado where I live would ABSOLUTELY allow for using a gun or a knife in this situation. You can use deadly force to protect yourself or another that is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death.

5 aggressive men against two who are getting there rear ends kicked is definately within the definition of imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death.

If I were witnessing that sitaution as a CCW and assessed it as you described, I would have taken cover with all of the perps in my sight within 20 feet and shouted a warning to them and then if they failed to comply I would have dropped the hammer on one of them, probably the one easiest to hit without danger of injury to any innocent people. That would get the attention of the others and probably allow you to detain them until the police get there by ordering them face down on the pavement. Meanwhile, you'd also have to have the presence of mind to get a witness to call 911 and also ask witnesses to the incident to give their statements.

Now, same scenario with only a knife: Unfortunately, I'm not good enough with a knife to confidently defend myself against 5 aggressive adult men. Nor would I be able to intervene in this type of beating. The best bet would be to stand nearby as a witness and call the police (who were worthless here and it could have resulted in someones' death).

 

[leadcounsel]

Update:

After going to the range last weekend my friend has a renewed interest in starting to carry again (he took the course and has a CCW but just never got interested in carry a gun and carries a knife instead).

His main reason for not carrying was that he feels his pistol is too big. He's shopping for a new pistol and interested in the Sig P226. I'm happy for him.