Advantages of flechette loads?

Shotgun Flechetts were a failure in Vietnam tests.

In order to pack the shell full of Flechetts, 1/2 of them have to be packed backward to allow proper stacking of the tiny fins on the rear.
Since the Flechetts stabilized very poorly, many of the backward needles failed to turn point first.

Stabilization was a major problem with even the point-first needles failing to stabilize, and far too many hit the target sideways and failed to penetrate.

Due to the low mass, many of the Flechetts that did hit point first failed to penetrate and were buried only point deep, producing very minor superficial wounds.

Last, even those that did perform as intended lack enough mass to provide any real trauma and there were many cases of enemy soldiers hit with the needles who while they were bleeding out internally failed to realize the seriousness of the wounds and continued to run and shoot until blood loss dropped them.

The official finding was that as a shotgun round the Flechetts were a failure and they were withdrawn from use.
In other words, if they were of any value as a shotgun round the military would still be using them..... they aren't.

Bottom line: To date, no shotgun round yet discovered is better than a load of lead buck shot.
The Flechetts were one of those great ideas that simply failed to pan out in the real world.
 
Someone's selling nails, it seems. A newly developed load, it seems. Interesting. See attached, below.

There were some Vietnam era shotgun flechette loads that worked reasonably well, up to a point. Not all of them loaded flechettes base to point- the better performing rounds (Whirlpool, Winchester, Remington, AAI) all loaded their payloads all point forward.

The AAI L-L1 (AA-32) round did well in testing- but was never used in combat, apparently. Its 32 flechettes had fins that were angled to provide an optimum rate of stabilizing spin, and nested very compactly within the hull and sabot assembly. The round produced patterns of 6- 8 feet at 100 meters, and would penetrate the then-issued flak vest at that range, despite its relatively low muzzle velocity of 1260 fps.

Remington's Beehive shotgun round found a good deal of favor among USMC shotgunners, but was not so well received by the US Army. The Remington Model SP-12F-20 load pushed 20 7.5 grain flechettes at a tested MV of 2200 fps, produced patterns of 6 feet at 100 meters, and could be combat effective out to about 275 meters. It was found that penetration with this load actually improved beyond 35 yards, as yawing had ceased and the flechettes had stabilized. One other thing was discovered- this load did not like choked barrels, and the tighter the choke, the more open the patterns.

These flechettes did not do well at penetrating intervening vegetation in the jungles of Vietnam, however. The light weight of the individual projectiles meant they shed velocity quickly in brush, and were easily deflected. In open country, their flat trajectories and high initial velocity meant that they could still produce wounds at 500 meters, though there was no way of guaranteeing what might be hit at such ranges. That sort of thing seemed to worry the Army much more than it did the USMC for some reason, one of the reasons flechette loads were not as popular with the Army.

Shotgun flechette loads have always exercised a certain mystique among some shotgunners, almost legendary in some ways. Yet their actual performance fails to live up to the legend in most cases when shotgunners have bought some of these legendary loads and tested them on their own.

Does Sabot Designs LLC have the design of their flechette round 'right'? It drives nineteen eight-grain flechettes at a MV of 1925 FPS- not a far cry at all from the old Remington Beehive round that the USMC used to like so much in the Vietnam era.

So it might well work as advertised, I don't know. As I see it, the main question prospective purchasers need to ask is, do they really need a round that offers these performance specifications in a defensive shotgun round, given that most defensive uses of shotguns occur at relatively short range? And secondly, do they really want to pay as much as these rounds cost (admittedly, these rounds certainly don't sound inexpensive to produce) to find out?

fwiw,

lpl

(info on specific flechette loads mentioned above comes from Swearengen's The World's Fighting Shotguns (c 1978, TBN Enterprises).
==============

http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/006.html

//snip//

PRODUCT PRICES


FLECHETTE SABOT AMMUNITION, 12 GA, 200 ROUND DOUBLE CASE

PER UNIT COST $2.30

FA-12-200(INCLUDES 11% FET)-------------------------------------$510.60
SHIPPING---------------------------------------------------------$35.00
CASH TOTAL------------------------------------------------------$545.60


CREDIT CARD PURCHASE TOTAL------------------------------------- $567.77
 
I question the validity of the report posted by SilentHitz.
Click to expand...
That was a quote from their site, not my knowledge of their product...I take it with a grain of salt since they wouldn't give a bad review of something they're trying to sell...thought everyone else would too.:rolleyes:

My comment on getting them to fly straight was more of a improvement on distance...no way do I think they even come CLOSE to out performing buckshot. The OP asked for a little info and history on them, I provided just one link of many that come up when you do a search.
 
Somebody Selling The Things said:
Combat evaluations from May 1967 to February 1968 were made with flechettes, M162 00 buckshot, and XM257 #4 buckshot. Flechette ammunition indicated a high lethality at all ranges with several one shot kills at engagement ranges to 100 yards,
Click to expand...

The "evaluations" time frame, they probably got that about right. I was there throughout that whole period, saw a few of the fleschette rounds fired (from a 12 Gauge). My admittedly limited experience with them beyond 10 yards is that you might as well be chucking rocks. As far as a 100 yard kill, the only way I believe that happening is a hit at 10 yards, man runs off 90 yards, headlong into a tree, breaks his neck and dies. That "report" rings about as true as LBJ's "body counts".

DC
 
Having never owned a flechette round nor tearing into one, I will pose what little I know... Ball pellet ammo is proven! The flechette rounds contain multiple wire "darts" these are stamped fin stabilized but staggered with forward and rearward orientation to maximize payload...

That is the first negative issue! Second is the fact that each projectile is severely limited in overall mass... Steel round shot was frowned on by duck hunters for lack of "git on out and kill" capability.

The record shows that these projectiles failed to penetrate deeply enuff on a routine to make a reasonable "manstopper" in combat... If they had, we would have them on the shelves of the local shops along side or replacing 00 Buck!

Penetration reviews by DOD showed very shallow wounds compared to that of Buck used by combat forces in combat...

In combat, the only positive aspect was the "3 for 1" rule... for every wounded troop, you can remove 3 soldiers as 2 carry the wounded off the battle field. But a dead troop can be left to lay until a break in the fighting.

In real world use, you have minimal lethality backed by an un determined flight path caused by many issues none the least is less than precise straightness. Flight cannot be guaranteed to a nearly straighht path...,


Now to back this up I revert back to my days of throwing darts in the barroom. I bought parts and assembled sets. I paid good money for tips, weights, shafts and flights... A "Cheap" set was 20 bucks and a nice set was near or above $50. I preferred heavy weights to compensate for a less than stellar release. A less than ideal flight set resulted in poor flight. The flechetts is a stamped item and precision is non existent.

The added situation for no added shaft weight means that minimal distance will carry forward penetrating momentum.

Thats all I know and it ain't flechette specific but if a dart fying at 100fps needs all that technology, than I wouldn't rely on piano wire "darts" for life preserving performing performance.
Brent
 
unlees your using hardened lead needles that have some weight behind them flechette is not going to do much.Now if hevi-shot made those cute little flechette's they would be deadly
 
 
Looks like the majority of penetration ended less than 7 inches inside the block.... from 7 feet away.
implied-facepalm.jpg




For a recent report on flechettes, take a look at here and here.
 
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