Advantages of .40 S&W caliber?
- Thread starter TCW
- Start date
Will Beararms
New member
These days with the advances in ammo, you are well served with any of the calibers that you have mentioned.
The sell of the .40 was that it had the fight-stopping characteristics of the .45 in a smaller package with a higher magazine capacity than the 9mm. Recoil is also more in line with the 9mm versus the .45ACP. Recoil is subjective of course.
I prefer the .45ACP for self-defense and for enjoyment, the 9mm. Don't get caught up in what looks good on paper. Go to a range and try them all on for size.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
The sell of the .40 was that it had the fight-stopping characteristics of the .45 in a smaller package with a higher magazine capacity than the 9mm. Recoil is also more in line with the 9mm versus the .45ACP. Recoil is subjective of course.
I prefer the .45ACP for self-defense and for enjoyment, the 9mm. Don't get caught up in what looks good on paper. Go to a range and try them all on for size.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
Well, the .40 is bigger than the 9mm, but smaller than the .45. As a general rule of thumb, the bigger you get, the harder you hit. The only problem is that the bigger your bullet, the less of them you can fit into your gun. That's where the .40 came in. It was meant to give a bullet closer in size to a .45, but with the hi-capacity of a 9mm.
Thus, in the same sized gun, for example a mid-sized Glock, you can carry 15 rounds of 9mm, but only 13 rounds of .40.
Keep in mind that bigger bullets generally kick more, too.
Regarding the .357 sig, the case is the same size as the .40, but it has a smaller bullet. In fact, the Sig-Sauer 229 magazines (not the 9mm's, obviously) are marked .357/.40 indicating that you can use the magazines for either. The difference is that the .357 sig has a smaller, faster moving bullet, while the .40 has a bigger, slower one. Which is better? Beats me! But cheap .357 sig ammo sure is hard to find.
Thus, in the same sized gun, for example a mid-sized Glock, you can carry 15 rounds of 9mm, but only 13 rounds of .40.
Keep in mind that bigger bullets generally kick more, too.
Regarding the .357 sig, the case is the same size as the .40, but it has a smaller bullet. In fact, the Sig-Sauer 229 magazines (not the 9mm's, obviously) are marked .357/.40 indicating that you can use the magazines for either. The difference is that the .357 sig has a smaller, faster moving bullet, while the .40 has a bigger, slower one. Which is better? Beats me! But cheap .357 sig ammo sure is hard to find.
For whatever it's worth, here's my $0.02 on this:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> The .40S&W has a higher velocity than the .45ACP and while the .40S&W is smaller than the .45ACP, street results (see Marshall & Sanow and The Fackerites) seem to indicate that it has stopping power equal to, or sometimes greater than, the .45ACP.
<LI> While the .357SIG has show good initial performance which may rival, or even surpass, the .40S&W; it has not been around long enough to establish a proven track record. Remember, two decades ago the 9mm was being billed as superior to the .45ACP -- time has proven this claim to be false. The same thing might happen with the .357SIG. Presently, it shows great promise. Time will tell the story.
<LI> While the .40S&W can not claim the velocity of the hot 9mm, it does come pretty close and what it lacks in velocity, it more than makes up for in bullet size to produce greater one shot stopping capability than the 9mm.</UL>Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
<LI> While the .357SIG has show good initial performance which may rival, or even surpass, the .40S&W; it has not been around long enough to establish a proven track record. Remember, two decades ago the 9mm was being billed as superior to the .45ACP -- time has proven this claim to be false. The same thing might happen with the .357SIG. Presently, it shows great promise. Time will tell the story.
<LI> While the .40S&W can not claim the velocity of the hot 9mm, it does come pretty close and what it lacks in velocity, it more than makes up for in bullet size to produce greater one shot stopping capability than the 9mm.</UL>Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
TCW; IMHO there's no advantage of a 40 cal over the other calibre's. I've had calibre's come and go but I can never seem to keep a 40 cal pistol. I think the best application is in law enforcement. As far as the 45 is concerned it's a better calibre, period. I can't comment on the 357 sig because I'm not familier with it. The 9mm has made the greatest strides the last few years in bullet development and performance. In real world performance I don't think there's any difference between the hottest 9mm and the 40 cal. Best Regards, J.Parker
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Parker: I don't think there's any difference between the hottest 9mm and the 40 cal ...[/quote]That's good to hear because while I personally think that the .40S&W is superior in all regards, my everyday carry gun is a 9mm.
Will Beararms
New member
Another thing to keep in mind in this political climate is the restriction of hollwpoint bullets to civillians.
If this were to ever happen, perish the thought, all bets are off and throw all these "tests" out the window. The only effective ball ammo caliber IMHO is the .45ACP and according to the experts, it is not anything to write home about.
I for one feel well-protected with any .45ACP round-----ball or hollowpoint. This is and of itself makes me prefer the .45ACP.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
If this were to ever happen, perish the thought, all bets are off and throw all these "tests" out the window. The only effective ball ammo caliber IMHO is the .45ACP and according to the experts, it is not anything to write home about.
I for one feel well-protected with any .45ACP round-----ball or hollowpoint. This is and of itself makes me prefer the .45ACP.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
riddleofsteel
New member
why i carry a .40 auto?
it is the largest, most powerful, readly available cartridge that is chambered in a pistol that is light and small enough to carry comfortably and conceal well. look at the K40 Kahr. it is as small or smaller than most .380's were 10 years ago and holds 8 .40 autos.
second unlike the 9mm where bullet/load combo selection is critical to effectivness, almost any .40 auto load on the market will do the job.
third as far as hardball ammo, studies as shown that .45, .40, and 9mm are all just about as effective if you hit the target in the kill zone. but given a choice i would of course preffer a .45 ball to shoot and a .40 auto ball to carry (pistol size again).
IMHO
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
it is the largest, most powerful, readly available cartridge that is chambered in a pistol that is light and small enough to carry comfortably and conceal well. look at the K40 Kahr. it is as small or smaller than most .380's were 10 years ago and holds 8 .40 autos.
second unlike the 9mm where bullet/load combo selection is critical to effectivness, almost any .40 auto load on the market will do the job.
third as far as hardball ammo, studies as shown that .45, .40, and 9mm are all just about as effective if you hit the target in the kill zone. but given a choice i would of course preffer a .45 ball to shoot and a .40 auto ball to carry (pistol size again).
IMHO
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
Advantage over the .357 SIG for fellow lazy asses like me -- you don't have to lube the cases while reloading.
Advantage over the .45 ACP for people with small hands like me -- you can go with a slimmer grip.
You'll be fine with any one of the above, but if the above considerations are a factor, keep them in mind.
Justin
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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Advantage over the .45 ACP for people with small hands like me -- you can go with a slimmer grip.
You'll be fine with any one of the above, but if the above considerations are a factor, keep them in mind.
Justin
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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
I did a lot of research when I pick .40 for my guns. It was 45,9mm, or 40, and at the time 40 was the new kid on the block. There were only 2 or three guns made in 40 back then, so that made a difference too. It was the lure of higher capacity and bigger bullet that lead me to chose the 40. Today you don't get that choice unless you are willing to spend big bucks on preban hicaps. I still would not go with a 9mm. I too feel it is too variable on what ammo you carry. It is true it matters where you hit, but I believe in having a bit of buffer there, so a bigger bullet is my buffer. If I were to buy a gun now(that is if the double stack 45's have gone down a bit in price,) I would probably go with the 45 since you only get 10 anyway you go, and like the man said bigger bullet is better. Now para is still letting you get the 16 rd 40's and if you like the 1911 style, that is still a good way to go. Don't get me wrong. I love the 40. Different type of recoil than either the 9mm or 45, so you should definatly try shooting all 4 types to see what you are comfortable with, then see what options you have with the guns that fit your hand for the calibers you liked shooting. rambleing so I will quit now.
Ballistically, the .357 sig is identical to the .357 mag, which has an excellent reputation for stopping power. Because it is shot from an autopistol, there is less recoil, but the muzzle blast is still significant. In all shootings to date, it has proved a show stopper with ability to penetrate auto glass and metal, retaining fight stopping energy. Ammo isn't cheap, but as more LE agencies switch to it, the price is coming down as the availability is going up. As I have said in previous posts, there is a tendency for it to overpenetrate, which may not make it the ideal civilian defense round, unless you feel the need for the penetration capability of the round. I own all three, but .45 is still my choice for every day use.
Another advantage of the .40 is the wide range of loads, from light and fast 135 gr loads that come close to the .357 sig to the heavier and slower 180 gr loads. You can choose your load based on your objectives and situation - -it's all about choice, and the .40 gives you several.
The Griffon
Inactive
I picked the .40 because it is becoming the pre-dominant cartridge of my local law enforcement agencies. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. But then I've carried 9mm, .357, .45. It's shot placement that wins the fight not the caliber.
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The difference between an optimist and a pessimist is the pessimist has more information.
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The difference between an optimist and a pessimist is the pessimist has more information.
Was just viewing the Stopping Power page posted above. I had not seen it since the change, nice organization, very easy and quick to use. anyway, the # of shootings appears a bit misleading. Sure, there were 71 shootings involving .45 HydraShoks, but were ALL of those shootings solved in one shot?? I've never heard of ANY gun battle ending in LESS THAN a handful of rounds exchanged!
If i am reading the data wrong, please correct me!
k
If i am reading the data wrong, please correct me!
k
Chiz,all the data represented in the Marshall stopping power charts is based on one shot stops. There may have been more *shots* involved and or more than one shooter but the represented data is for single *hits* to the torso. Many will argue that the data is inaccurate because it`s not scientific. However if it were obtained through controlled experiments in a lab it wouldn`t be the "real world" so it wouldn`t be accurate either. As anecdotal data it can still be pretty convincing though. TCW,the bases have pretty well been covered. All four calibers are very good in their own right so long as the right loads are selected. Marcus
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited May 19, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited May 19, 2000).]
The .40S&W has several advantages, but one (to me, at least) glaring disadvantage;
Advantages:
1.) Ballistic superiority to the 9mm round in almost all loadings. (I don't know if that means anything in "real world" performance, but there it is.) As Shawn Dodson has shown on his website, some .40S&W loadings perform better in ballistic gelatin than .45ACP rounds, too.
2.) Ability to be chambered in guns whose size is the same as guns chambering the 9mm round. Obviously, the concept of "size efficiency" (ala Mark Moritz) is important for CCW.
Disadvantages:
1.) The .40S&W chambering, in guns of a form & size originally designed around the 9mm cartridge, is proving to beat the guns up more, and earlier, than expected. This has required repeated & ongoing design changes in the guns themselves (witness changes in the Glock .40s over the past decade), except in the case of those few pistols designed around the .40S&W from the ground up, eg, the.40S&W H&K USP series guns. (This issue will obviously be sorted out eventually, as design changes are incorporated into the various smaller .40S&W guns.)
2.) Most important to me, the .40S&W round, in ALL current loadings, is considerably less-precise than either the 9mm or .45ACP rounds. (I don't have any experience with .357Sig, though it's reputedly highly-accurate.) Obviously, the 9mm & .45ACP rounds have had nearly a century of development, so it's not surprising that both should be currently-available in a high state of evolution, while the "newcomer" .40S&W isn't yet up to par in accuracy/precision.
Nonetheless, for me, this is important. I can make one hole groups all day with my 9mm and .45ACP guns, but simply find it can't be done with the .40S&W; there's too much inherent variability in point-of-impact.
There's no question but that it's "combat-accurate", but, if the chips ever go down, I want to feel confident that I can place my shots on a dime-sized spot, not just in the "center of mass". (I know, I know, under extreme life-threatening stress no one will shoot as well as he would under artificial circumstances, but I want every possible factor working for me that I can get, including intrinsic accuracy & precision of the gun-cartridge combination I carry, and the confidence such known accuracy-precision inspires.)
Just my $.03. Many folks like the .40S&W for its several advantageous aspects, and have no problem with the accuracy-precision issue; more power to 'em. Best.
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"Potius sero quam nunquam."
Advantages:
1.) Ballistic superiority to the 9mm round in almost all loadings. (I don't know if that means anything in "real world" performance, but there it is.) As Shawn Dodson has shown on his website, some .40S&W loadings perform better in ballistic gelatin than .45ACP rounds, too.
2.) Ability to be chambered in guns whose size is the same as guns chambering the 9mm round. Obviously, the concept of "size efficiency" (ala Mark Moritz) is important for CCW.
Disadvantages:
1.) The .40S&W chambering, in guns of a form & size originally designed around the 9mm cartridge, is proving to beat the guns up more, and earlier, than expected. This has required repeated & ongoing design changes in the guns themselves (witness changes in the Glock .40s over the past decade), except in the case of those few pistols designed around the .40S&W from the ground up, eg, the.40S&W H&K USP series guns. (This issue will obviously be sorted out eventually, as design changes are incorporated into the various smaller .40S&W guns.)
2.) Most important to me, the .40S&W round, in ALL current loadings, is considerably less-precise than either the 9mm or .45ACP rounds. (I don't have any experience with .357Sig, though it's reputedly highly-accurate.) Obviously, the 9mm & .45ACP rounds have had nearly a century of development, so it's not surprising that both should be currently-available in a high state of evolution, while the "newcomer" .40S&W isn't yet up to par in accuracy/precision.
Nonetheless, for me, this is important. I can make one hole groups all day with my 9mm and .45ACP guns, but simply find it can't be done with the .40S&W; there's too much inherent variability in point-of-impact.
There's no question but that it's "combat-accurate", but, if the chips ever go down, I want to feel confident that I can place my shots on a dime-sized spot, not just in the "center of mass". (I know, I know, under extreme life-threatening stress no one will shoot as well as he would under artificial circumstances, but I want every possible factor working for me that I can get, including intrinsic accuracy & precision of the gun-cartridge combination I carry, and the confidence such known accuracy-precision inspires.)
Just my $.03. Many folks like the .40S&W for its several advantageous aspects, and have no problem with the accuracy-precision issue; more power to 'em. Best.
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"Potius sero quam nunquam."
David Berkowitz
New member
TCW,
Every person here has been correct...for them.
You have to shoot them all, and in differnet guns of different sizes, and see what works best for you.
Now, this task will take some time, and you might find you buy and sell many of them. Or, if you are like me, just buy and buy.
But that is also where the fun is. Not so much the trading, but in the experimenting and experiencing.
For self defense, it probably is true that since modern, high tech bullets all perform well, shot placement will be critical. Let's assume you are highly proficient and you can put 'em where you want them. you're in fine shape.
But if you stress out when under fire, as most normal people will, I would go for the largest caliber you can control well. Someone else said it, "Bigger bullets are better." Bigger bullets mean bigger holes, which cause people to leak more and faster.
As far as recoil is concerned, after you get experience with round, the recoil factor diminishes. If it doesn't, either pratice more or switch.
For what it's worth, I shoot the 45 best, then the 40, and lastly the 9mm. I also shoot the 45 more, pratice with 40 a lot, and hardly ever use the 9mm. If I shot the 9 the most, I would get better and probably shoot that the best. \Also, I find half inch of accuracy differences at 25 yds to not matter. In self defense at that range, I probably won't shoot at that distance and get my but outta there. I'm not LEO, and have no business being involved with someone that far away.
Still...one wonders.
Every person here has been correct...for them.
You have to shoot them all, and in differnet guns of different sizes, and see what works best for you.
Now, this task will take some time, and you might find you buy and sell many of them. Or, if you are like me, just buy and buy.
But that is also where the fun is. Not so much the trading, but in the experimenting and experiencing.
For self defense, it probably is true that since modern, high tech bullets all perform well, shot placement will be critical. Let's assume you are highly proficient and you can put 'em where you want them. you're in fine shape.
But if you stress out when under fire, as most normal people will, I would go for the largest caliber you can control well. Someone else said it, "Bigger bullets are better." Bigger bullets mean bigger holes, which cause people to leak more and faster.
As far as recoil is concerned, after you get experience with round, the recoil factor diminishes. If it doesn't, either pratice more or switch.
For what it's worth, I shoot the 45 best, then the 40, and lastly the 9mm. I also shoot the 45 more, pratice with 40 a lot, and hardly ever use the 9mm. If I shot the 9 the most, I would get better and probably shoot that the best. \Also, I find half inch of accuracy differences at 25 yds to not matter. In self defense at that range, I probably won't shoot at that distance and get my but outta there. I'm not LEO, and have no business being involved with someone that far away.
Still...one wonders.