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Advanced Iron Sight Use?
- Thread starter ckpj99
- Start date
Jim Watson
New member
I shoot a little BPCR with a vernier tang rear and globe front over about a three foot sight radius. Makes a hundredth on the vernier pretty much an MOA or at least a IPHY.
I find I really have to concentrate on keeping the sights concentric and on the target. Yes, the diffraction of the rear aperture helps, but it is not so automatic as to require no attention. Maybe under a desert sun where I could stop the aperture down very small, it would do better.
I think a .30-30 is kind of a blunt instrument to develop technique with. It is not as mechanically accurate as a bolt action or an AR and is very sensitive to sling tension. Plus, it kicks. I'd rather shoot my bolt action .30-06 than a lever action .30-30.
Hope for better supplies of rimfire and work with your better .22.
I find I really have to concentrate on keeping the sights concentric and on the target. Yes, the diffraction of the rear aperture helps, but it is not so automatic as to require no attention. Maybe under a desert sun where I could stop the aperture down very small, it would do better.
I think a .30-30 is kind of a blunt instrument to develop technique with. It is not as mechanically accurate as a bolt action or an AR and is very sensitive to sling tension. Plus, it kicks. I'd rather shoot my bolt action .30-06 than a lever action .30-30.
Hope for better supplies of rimfire and work with your better .22.
I have used aperture sights on ARs, biathlon and air rifles. I find the ability of someone like me (mediocre shooter with not so great sight) to discern minor imperfections in sight picture fairly amazing.
Some rifles don't even have a front post, but instead have a front aperture as well. There does seem to be something intuitive about centering an object in the center of a circle.
Some rifles don't even have a front post, but instead have a front aperture as well. There does seem to be something intuitive about centering an object in the center of a circle.
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I'm not saying that there isn't a centering phenomenon with receiver mounted aperture sights. Our brains are pretty good at centering. However, when it comes down to thousandths of an inch, a typical AR peep isn't going reveal those differences very well. Again, some people can do it and do it well, but those sights aren't "mechanically" accurate. That's a phrase I just made up meaning that there's a human judgement involved (just like a 10 foot sight radius is more "mechanically" accurate than a 2 inch sight radius, it eliminates some human judgement).
Tang mounted peeps, or other types of peep that are really close the eye and have an appropriate small aperture, force your eye into one single place. They eliminate the need to line things up because your eye must be in an exact position to even see the front sight.
Then there's the increased depth of field provided by the small aperture that allows you to see the target more clearly when focused on the front sight.
I know, I know, getting an A in "The Physics of Light, Color and Vision" in college has made me mouthy.
Tang mounted peeps, or other types of peep that are really close the eye and have an appropriate small aperture, force your eye into one single place. They eliminate the need to line things up because your eye must be in an exact position to even see the front sight.
Then there's the increased depth of field provided by the small aperture that allows you to see the target more clearly when focused on the front sight.
I know, I know, getting an A in "The Physics of Light, Color and Vision" in college has made me mouthy.
And Jim - concerning the 30-30, I tend to agree. The decision to get a 30-30 was not made lightly. I probably would get more accuracy of a bolt gun in a light recoiling round, however, it seems that every bolt gun made in the last 50 years has iron sights that are an after thought. Either they're generally crummy quality, mounted way to far forward, or missing all together.
The 30-30 has a decent sight radius for such a short gun. I can mount a tang peep on it when I finally figure out which one I want. And it's at least accurate to one MOA with the right ammo. I don't really have super long range shooting opportunities, so shooting out to 1000 yards really isn't an option for me. I really just want 1" groups at 100 yards.
The 30-30 has a decent sight radius for such a short gun. I can mount a tang peep on it when I finally figure out which one I want. And it's at least accurate to one MOA with the right ammo. I don't really have super long range shooting opportunities, so shooting out to 1000 yards really isn't an option for me. I really just want 1" groups at 100 yards.
I have an iron-sights question.
I'm probably doing it wrong, but when I sight in my rifle, I like it to where the when the sights are lined up, to have the post just under where I want the shot to go, so I can see the target. Others I shoot with like it to cover the target. Is there a "proper" way?
I'm probably doing it wrong, but when I sight in my rifle, I like it to where the when the sights are lined up, to have the post just under where I want the shot to go, so I can see the target. Others I shoot with like it to cover the target. Is there a "proper" way?
Regarding where to put a flat top post on a round bullseye.....
The old "Navy" hold was to center the front sight's flat top in the middle of the bullseye. But it caused elevation problems as finding the center of a fuzzy round black ball with a sharply defined black post was not good. Putting the post right under the bullseye eliminated elevation shot stringing. And calling ones shots with "putting the pumpkin on top the fence post" was more precise.
You did have to come down on the rear sight 1/2 to a full MOA in dim light compared to bright light. The eye's iris was smaller in bright light (just like a camera lens f/stop) and the bullseye appeared larger. Appearing smaller in dim light caused folks to put the top of the front post a bit higher on it and had to come down a bit to correct.
Front sight posts with rounded sides on their back oft times would shoot into the light. Sunlight coming from the right side put more shade on the left side and the front sight had to be held 1/4 to 1/2 MOA further right to compensate for the visual effect. So, a click left for a right light corrected it.
The old "Navy" hold was to center the front sight's flat top in the middle of the bullseye. But it caused elevation problems as finding the center of a fuzzy round black ball with a sharply defined black post was not good. Putting the post right under the bullseye eliminated elevation shot stringing. And calling ones shots with "putting the pumpkin on top the fence post" was more precise.
You did have to come down on the rear sight 1/2 to a full MOA in dim light compared to bright light. The eye's iris was smaller in bright light (just like a camera lens f/stop) and the bullseye appeared larger. Appearing smaller in dim light caused folks to put the top of the front post a bit higher on it and had to come down a bit to correct.
Front sight posts with rounded sides on their back oft times would shoot into the light. Sunlight coming from the right side put more shade on the left side and the front sight had to be held 1/4 to 1/2 MOA further right to compensate for the visual effect. So, a click left for a right light corrected it.
For the OP, the rifle has to be capable of the same shooting capability of the shooter. If its not, then regardless of technique, the shooter cannot shoot better that the gun. Lever actions are not noted for target accuracy. They are fine hunting guns as they are more than accurate enough for that, but not good target guns.
In other words you need a good reliable gun and ammunition to find out if you are shooting well.
I am going to heartily disagree with Kraigway on the flinch.
Fear of snakes are build into our DNA and for good reason. Overcoming that sort of reaction can be done, but I suspect it would take a fair amount of work.
Getting a shot also causes pain, I learned to relax finally on the advice of a doc and I can watch them stick the needle in and not flinch or tense up.
Recoil is he same way though it is somewhat more complicated. Its not the recoil that the issue, its any possible pain. Get a big enough gun and its going to hurt (though that can be assisted with various recoil pads). Too much of that will cause a flinch.
The advice on the trigger assumes you do not know when its going to release and I find that incorrect. Some triggers are inconsistent , but you know how much pressure the trigger needs and when is going to fire if you are thinking about the trigger.
What you are after is to be thinking about the target and the trigger squeeze is automatic to the point you are not thinking about it.
If all your attention is focused on the target, then it will be a surprise because your attention is where it should be.
You are actually wobbling at your point of aim, its not possible not to. Good shooters don't wobble much and that tiny wobble is tight enough to shoot good groups.
Most of us wobble to a larger or smaller degree. I am not as good as I used to be as age takes its toll.
Eye flinch is a factor that does need to be worked on as well. If you anticipate the blast (not recoil) then your startle mechanism will start to close your eye before you shoot and you loose the sight picture.
That does take some work.
In other words you need a good reliable gun and ammunition to find out if you are shooting well.
I am going to heartily disagree with Kraigway on the flinch.
Fear of snakes are build into our DNA and for good reason. Overcoming that sort of reaction can be done, but I suspect it would take a fair amount of work.
Getting a shot also causes pain, I learned to relax finally on the advice of a doc and I can watch them stick the needle in and not flinch or tense up.
Recoil is he same way though it is somewhat more complicated. Its not the recoil that the issue, its any possible pain. Get a big enough gun and its going to hurt (though that can be assisted with various recoil pads). Too much of that will cause a flinch.
The advice on the trigger assumes you do not know when its going to release and I find that incorrect. Some triggers are inconsistent , but you know how much pressure the trigger needs and when is going to fire if you are thinking about the trigger.
What you are after is to be thinking about the target and the trigger squeeze is automatic to the point you are not thinking about it.
If all your attention is focused on the target, then it will be a surprise because your attention is where it should be.
You are actually wobbling at your point of aim, its not possible not to. Good shooters don't wobble much and that tiny wobble is tight enough to shoot good groups.
Most of us wobble to a larger or smaller degree. I am not as good as I used to be as age takes its toll.
Eye flinch is a factor that does need to be worked on as well. If you anticipate the blast (not recoil) then your startle mechanism will start to close your eye before you shoot and you loose the sight picture.
That does take some work.
I think a .30-30 is kind of a blunt instrument to develop technique with. It is not as mechanically accurate as a bolt action or an AR and is very sensitive to sling tension. Plus, it kicks. I'd rather shoot my bolt action .30-06 than a lever action .30-30.
That depends upon the .30/30 in question, does it not?
A model 94WIN Trapper and a Marlin 30A are both "thutty-thutty's", the same as a habanero and bell are both peppers ..... night and day difference between the two .....
The OP has a Marlin 336 ..... which with a weight of 7 lbs combined with the comparatively mild recoil fo the .30/30, should kick a whole lot less than one of these short barrelled, plastic stocked 30-06 bargain bolties offered at all the McBox stores of late ..... these plastic fantastics weigh less than the 336, and in 30-06, kick much more: Pushing a bullet of equal weight 10-15% faster (by burning 25-35% more powder in a barrel but 2" longer ...... TANSTAAFL, especially in physics!
So many people think the .30/30 is a hard kicking, inaccurate gun ....
Jim Watson
New member
I should have specified, the nasty little .30-30 that sticks in my memory is my neighbor's '94 carbine with scope in tall side mount.
And MY .30-06 is a walnut and blue steel model 70.
A friend here has had some experience with FELT recoil.
Her husband's plastic .30-06 kicked her around, so she got a BAR .270.
Fine mild rifle; less bullet, more weight, gas operation.
But it was stolen, so she first went hunting with my 788 .30-30.
Sighted in, hit and killed a deer, no discomfort reported.
Her next hunt was with another loaner, this one a fishing partner's Vanguard .300 Win Mag.
It sure looked like it was bumping her around as she moved the sights up from 100 to 200, but she did not complain and it got her a bigger deer at longer range.
All a matter of perception.
And MY .30-06 is a walnut and blue steel model 70.
A friend here has had some experience with FELT recoil.
Her husband's plastic .30-06 kicked her around, so she got a BAR .270.
Fine mild rifle; less bullet, more weight, gas operation.
But it was stolen, so she first went hunting with my 788 .30-30.
Sighted in, hit and killed a deer, no discomfort reported.
Her next hunt was with another loaner, this one a fishing partner's Vanguard .300 Win Mag.
It sure looked like it was bumping her around as she moved the sights up from 100 to 200, but she did not complain and it got her a bigger deer at longer range.
All a matter of perception.
bbqncigars
New member
FWIW, I prefer a good peep sight. I am particularly fond of the adjustable Merit apertures. They can be dialed in to suit the occasion. For me, their accuracy is comparable to a scope in shorter distances (<400yds)
You've gotten some very good advice here. A few things that I've found over the years:
1. A lever-action Marlin or Winchester can be a good shooter, but barrels and magazine tubes are tightly attached to barrels, so are susceptible to walking shots on paper as the barrel heats, or with varying sling pressure, ammo changes, etc. For best results, don't let the barrel get warm because as it lengthens, shots may walk on target, often lower. If zeroed in warm weather, then shot when several degrees colder, shots may print higher.
2. Trigger pulls on lever-actions and other rifles often lack the short, light pull and/or backlash control that good bolt-action centerfire and rimfire target rifles do. Pulls can be improved by a good gunsmith. If a trigger weighs over 4 lbs., or is rough and inconsistent, it might be a good idea to see what can be done to improve it. (Actually, some people do a bit better if there's a little smooth pre-travel because they tend to not jerk them like they may with shorter pulls.)
3. Follow-through is very important when offhand shooting. It's more important on rifles with rifles and handguns with slow lock-time or lower bullet velocity. Try not to take the gun down immediately, but keep it as steady as possible until the shot is well out of the bore. One way to do that is to make believe that a second shot is to be fired, whether it's a semi-auto or not.
4. Take a solid hold, but not too tight as to be shaky. In shooting from any position, including benchrest, try to make each shot the same as the last.
5. Benchrest- use the same pull-back against the shoulder, the same rifle position on the bag (use front forend stop?), same cheek pressure (or none). Same amount of downward pressure on forend (if used). Downward pressure on hard-kicking rifles is often a good idea. Make sure the front bag fits the forend well; neither too tight or too loose. Consistency, consistency, consistency!
6. Use wind flags, especially for rimfire or longer centerfire shots. Try to shoot only ONE wind flag condition, whenever possible. If not, learn the effects of wind from every "clock" position.
7. Relax and make shooting fun, not tension-filled and stressful.
1. A lever-action Marlin or Winchester can be a good shooter, but barrels and magazine tubes are tightly attached to barrels, so are susceptible to walking shots on paper as the barrel heats, or with varying sling pressure, ammo changes, etc. For best results, don't let the barrel get warm because as it lengthens, shots may walk on target, often lower. If zeroed in warm weather, then shot when several degrees colder, shots may print higher.
2. Trigger pulls on lever-actions and other rifles often lack the short, light pull and/or backlash control that good bolt-action centerfire and rimfire target rifles do. Pulls can be improved by a good gunsmith. If a trigger weighs over 4 lbs., or is rough and inconsistent, it might be a good idea to see what can be done to improve it. (Actually, some people do a bit better if there's a little smooth pre-travel because they tend to not jerk them like they may with shorter pulls.)
3. Follow-through is very important when offhand shooting. It's more important on rifles with rifles and handguns with slow lock-time or lower bullet velocity. Try not to take the gun down immediately, but keep it as steady as possible until the shot is well out of the bore. One way to do that is to make believe that a second shot is to be fired, whether it's a semi-auto or not.
4. Take a solid hold, but not too tight as to be shaky. In shooting from any position, including benchrest, try to make each shot the same as the last.
5. Benchrest- use the same pull-back against the shoulder, the same rifle position on the bag (use front forend stop?), same cheek pressure (or none). Same amount of downward pressure on forend (if used). Downward pressure on hard-kicking rifles is often a good idea. Make sure the front bag fits the forend well; neither too tight or too loose. Consistency, consistency, consistency!
6. Use wind flags, especially for rimfire or longer centerfire shots. Try to shoot only ONE wind flag condition, whenever possible. If not, learn the effects of wind from every "clock" position.
7. Relax and make shooting fun, not tension-filled and stressful.
I have an iron-sights question.
I'm probably doing it wrong, but when I sight in my rifle, I like it to where the when the sights are lined up, to have the post just under where I want the shot to go, so I can see the target. Others I shoot with like it to cover the target. Is there a "proper" way?
No way is wrong. Some people like the POA/POI, while others prefer to "lollipop" the target with the FSP ("lollipop" = 6 o'clock hold). For me, it depends on the shape of the FSP. If it's a big rectangle ala AR15/M16/whatever else, then I prefer to sight in so that I can "lollipop" the target. I have found my groups are better this way. Meanwhile, for the triangle shaped FSPs (think mauser) I prefer a POA/POI. You usually can see the hazy target better with triangle shaped posts, so there is really no need to sight in for 6 o'clock hold. I can alternate between a mauser and an AR without really having to think about the different POA's, for some reason it just comes naturally to me.
As for the OP, the thread starter really had the basics. Other advice, such as shot follow-up (holding the trigger for a split second and then releasing), is more of basic shooting skills... but I haven't really read any "bad" advice in this thread. Something that I haven't seen (I've read most of the thread but not every sentence) is the use of soot on the FSP to make it sharper. Ensuring that the front sight post is a VERY flat black can make a big difference in target shooting. Some shooting clubs (and the rifle range qualifying line in the USMC WAY back in the day) have an oil lamp that burns rich to let off a lot of soot. Shooters will hold their front sight over the lamp so the soot will coat their FSP to sharpen the post and reduce glare. It makes the most difference on sunny days, but it can help any time you're shooting outside.
Blackening front sights (with carbide lamps, spray-on Site Black, etc.) was/is never done to make the front sight appear sharp and well defined. That's done with the aiming eye focusing on it.
Blackened front sight posts do not have a bright side opposite the shady side when the sun's on one side or the other of them. The front sight appears in the same place regardless of what side of the rifle the sun's on. With properly blackened front sight posts, no correction for the sun's position is needed.
Sunlight corrections for non-blackened front sight posts is covered in post 28 in this thread.
Blackened front sight posts do not have a bright side opposite the shady side when the sun's on one side or the other of them. The front sight appears in the same place regardless of what side of the rifle the sun's on. With properly blackened front sight posts, no correction for the sun's position is needed.
Sunlight corrections for non-blackened front sight posts is covered in post 28 in this thread.