Advanced Iron Sight Use?

C

ckpj99

New member
So I love iron sights. I like shooting them at distance most people want to use scopes at. I'm not bad at it, but I'd like to get better.

Are there ANY advanced iron sight techniques I can practice and learn?

We all know the basics:
Focus on the front sight
Shoot with your breathing
Establish a consistent cheek weld
Focus on the geometry on the sight
Using a six o'clock zero to establish contrast between your sight and the target
Etc

So what else is there?
 
Well, I guess we could all just start pitching ideas at you, but what else are you already doing? Are you shooting off of a bench? Bags, BR Stand/Rest? Are you shooting from just about any position you can think of- or mostly just prone, kneeling, standing? What sling are you using? How are you slung up? Where is the forward attachment? That brings up what kind of rifle & stock? Got a shooting jacket with all the bells and whistles? Do you already have a quality competition peep sight, globe, adjustable reticles & such? GI sights?

See, there's lot of directions lots of us could take this. I'm really not trying to come across as a jerk- but your opening post is a little on the vague side. I'm sure we can get you some good answers- that's what makes TFL such a great place.
 
10-96 - right! Good questions. I'm not interested in competition stuff. I guess I want to improve my practical shooting. I shoot standing and from a bench, it would be pretty hard to kneel at the ranges I go to.

I'm currently shooting a Marlin 336 and a couple different .22s. With the Marlin, if I shoot a five shot group at 50 or 100 yards, a lot of times 3 of the shots are practically touching, but then I get a couple flyers. It also sometimes takes me a few groups to get on target.

For the Marlin, I have the stock sight and set of Skinner peep sights. The peeps aren't really improving my shooting much, but I suppose there's a learning curve.

I do have a sling, a basic, but sturdy, leather one. On my 336, it attaches at the bottom of the stock and the front of the forearm. I use it when I'm standing, using the typical wrap around my left arm. I don't use it when shooting benched, as I don't know how I would use it in that situation.

Thanks in advance! The pic is a typical group with the right ammo. My 336's accuracy varies a lot depending on the ammo I'm feeding it. Notice the two flyers.
 

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Well, here's a couple ideas that might be worth a peek at:

Standing:

Take a of masking tape with you to mark your foot position- try several widths & angles.

Try placing your 'loop' fingers on the bottom of the loop to grip the whole wrist and loop. Maybe it's my stiffness & arthritis- but I can feel the difference on a Win 94 and the outside IS more comfortable.

There have been a number of skinners made over the years. Can you get the sight closer to your eye? Going to a smaller aperture would be great for the best of lighting conditions, but you'd likely develop a dislike for my recommendation in less than ideal lighting.

Go ahead and grab a shooting jacket like this: http://www.militarylogisticsmfg.com/p0002252.html I don't know why they work, but they did seem to help my scores a bit.

Footwear... there was a recent thread on here about barefeet shooting or moccasins, or whatever. My favorite footwear has always been a pair of my old jump boots. Apparently squishy soles aren't everybody's favorites. Look at whatever you have that gives you the stablest platform.

With a bit of searching- you might locate a trigger shoe. Not sure if that would be up your alley or not- but they're out there.

Are you bringing your rifle as far up to your eye as possible, or are you bringing your head down to the sights more? Look at pics of match shooters. Any more, they barely keep any buttplate at all on their shoulders.

Breathing- Do you try to actuate the trigger on a full exhale or a 3/4 exhale? If you do one, try the other. I like the 3/4 better. And don't forget to breathe often. There's a term for what happens to your eyes when you don't breath and blink as often as you should (besides "dying"- definitely breathe enough to avoid that). Yeah, I said "actuate the trigger" I don't want someone to come along and beat me up because I didn't specify "press", "pull", "squeeze"- we all know it gets to the rear no matter what we call it.

Speaking of triggers- would any of your firearms benefit from action/trigger jobs? One at a time, they really aren't all that expensive when spread out.


From the Bench:

Are you placing your rest as close to the receiver as possible? That tends to help keep influence off barrels that aren't free-floated.

Try placing your left hand in different places to see if one will give you a more natural support of the rifles during the firing process.

Can you place your elbows on soft grippy surfaces like a piece of carpet or such?

Are thicker/thinner, harder/softer, grippier/smoother buttplates an option worth looking at?

Can you plant a 3 to 4 foot stick of rebar with a 12"-14" piece of engineer tape on it close to the target to use as a windflag to help read the wind? There used to be thing on the web called "Virtual Benchrest" that gave pretty good lessons on reading wind.


Anyway, these are just a few wonderments I have and hope one or two might work out for you. I guess the real secret would be to actually shoot with you to discuss firsthand what tips might be imparted- but that would be difficult I guess. Somebody else will be along shortly and I'm sure they will have some good points too. Hang in there, and good luck, and have fun.
 
I do have a sling, a basic, but sturdy, leather one. On my 336, it attaches at the bottom of the stock and the front of the forearm. I use it when I'm standing, using the typical wrap around my left arm. I don't use it when shooting benched, as I don't know how I would use it in that situation.
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The best practical shooting tip I ever got was found here:

http://carnival.saysuncle.com/001086.html
 
My rifle skills lag my handgun skills, so I bought a good A2 service rifle AR15 (iron sights) and have been working on my standing slow fire. So, while I'm no expert, I'll go out on a limb and offer a few thoughts anyway:

1. When standing, if the rifle's front sight is perfectly vertical below the target, I have to cant my head to get a sight picture, which makes me more unsteady and less relaxed. Instead, I'll let my head pitch forward a bit, but instead of canting my head to the side, I cant the rifle toward me.

2. Use your body's skeletal system to support itself and the rifle by getting your support hand relatively close to the receiver, resting your support elbow on your hip or ribs, and leaning back slightly.

3. A sling is typically used only when the support arm is supported by the ground or your knee in the prone and seated positions, respectively. It's not typically used when standing, so I'd stop using the sling so you're better able to adjust your standing position with more flexibility.

4. Establish your natural point of aim (NPA). Mount the rifle, close your eyes, cant the rifle, then open your eyes. The sights should be aligned with each other and your eye and with the target. Adjust your feet and the gun until all naturally points at the x-ring.

5. Your eye naturally wants to center the front sight in the middle of the aperture, but it can tough to trust that it's really centered, in which case part of your concentration is distracted off the front sight, because you're worried the front post isn't centered. Get your position right, then trust that it's centered.
 
I disagree with the following:
Your eye naturally wants to center the front sight in the middle of the (rear) aperture. . .
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Sorry, Mr. Borland. 'Tain't quite the situation.

One has to conciously move the rifle and their aiming eye such that the sights are aligned with each other and on the target.
 
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WooHoo...:D you mean I got four out of five?! :D (when Bart B. writes about rifles, I read ;)).

Anyhow, I understand, subconscious alignment ain't gonna fix a poor stance or misaligned sights, which is why I put #4 ("...the sights should be aligned with each other...") before #5. In point #5, I was trying to emphasize awareness on the front sight without distraction...but only after position is right.
 
OK, now I understand.

Establish your natural point of aim (NPA). Mount the rifle, close your eyes, cant the rifle, then open your eyes. The sights should be aligned with each other and your eye and with the target.
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Why cant the rifle? Nobody can cant a rifle with its rotation axis on the line of sight so the sight picture stays the same. The butt plate has to enscribe a big arc around the line of sight if the LOS is the cant axis.
 
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Thanks for all the awesome tips!

I'm actually thinking of ditching the Skinner sights and going back to a normal sight.

I used a Williams receiver peep on my 10/22 for a long time, and while "the eye naturally centers" a bit, it's not consistent enough for real tight accuracy at long ranges. The receiver peeps on Garands and Enfields and even those made for ARs are really meant for combat accuracy, not sub-MOA. That's not saying some folks can shoot sub-MOA with receiver peep sights.

What I'd really like is a tang peep sight. Because they sit so much closer to the eye, have a longer "tunnel" and sit so far back from the front sight, they really are built for long range accuracy. That being said, I keep hearing mixed reviews about the different types, and I'm hesitant to permanently alter my gun.
 
I actually got a big discussion a week or so ago on this forum because people kept saying, "just get a receiver peep sight." I explained that a receiver peep sight and tang peep sight are really not the same thing.

That being said, I went ahead a bought a receiver peep (because it didn't require me to alter my gun), and I prompted realized that it's not really what I'm looking for. They're great for many things, but I really don't think they're what I want for target shooting. Maybe on other guns, receiver sights sit closer to the eye, but on the 336, it's just too far away.
 
Most top ranked bullseye centerfire rifle shooters (both bolt guns and semiauto service rifles) keep their rifles straight up and level so the sights adjustments move parallel to wind and bullet drop axes. They sometimes tilt their head over a bit to get their aiming eye on the line of sight. That's never been a problem winning matches and setting records. Depending on the stock's shape and line of sight distance above the bore and the stock's comb, some head tilt may be needed.

Note that canted rifle in the picture has its sight also canted. For a given wind correction, both elevation and windage knobs need to be moved. Same for a change in range. Not good for centerfire rifles. But with smallbore 22 rimfire rifles whose bullets drift from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock on target from cross winds, canting the rifle (and therefore its sights) 30 degrees to the left (for right hand twists) eliminates the need to make elevation corrections to a windage adustment for wind changes.

About that cant you make after you've got a natural point of aim. That natural point is when the rifle's comfortably aimed at the bullseye and the sights are perfectly aligned on it. Yes, it's a good test to close your eyes, wait a few seconds, keep the rifle in position then open your eyes and see if they're still on the target. No competitive shooter worth of his winnings cants the rifle after getting that natural point of aim while his eyes are closed. That's guaranteed to reposition the rifle in ones shoulder and its line of sight is now off the original aiming point on the target.

===========================

Regarding that "shoot with your breathing" suggestion mentioned earlier. I don't know what's meant by that. But it's a good idea to hold your breath while aiming. Take a few deep breaths (hyperventilate?) then let out about half of the last one; hold your breath. That way, the expansion and contraction of your lungs won't move the muscles in your body that in turn move the rifle. You'll hold still best while you're not breathing. But get your shot off within 15 seconds of when you stop breathing. Your eyes are the first body parts to degrade from lack of oxygen; they're good for 15 to 20 seconds of perfect vision. If you don't shoot within 15 seconds of when you started holding your breath, relax a bit, hyperventilate again whild getting back on your natural point of aim, then hold your breath, hold your body still, squeeze that shot off so its a total suprise.

Remember where the sights were on target when the round fired and see if that's where the bullet went. If the bullet struck somewhere else, adjust it to where you "called" the shot". Never adjust the shot hole to the target's center.
 
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"... but then I get a couple flyers..."
Trigger. Don't yank it when your sight picture gets perfect.
Maintain the best sight alignment and sight picture you can while you press the trigger without moving the gun.
 
I started canting after reading Tubb's suggestion, and it feels like I can achieve a more relaxed and natural stance, with the rifle sitting more naturally in my shoulder. It's not a radical cant, with my sight picture more like a 5 o'clock hold, rather than a 6 o'clock hold. But yes, it seems to me to complicate sight adjustment when it's needed, so I'm open to other positions that might work better. So far, though, whether shooting my .22LR, air rifle, and AR15 wind hasn't seemed much an issue. It could be the distance isn't great enough, or I haven't shot in windy enough conditions.
 
Mr. Borland, would you have started canting your rifle had you seen shooting postions of others who've won as many matches and set as many records as David Tubb but held their rifles straight up?

However, shooting firearms accurately is exactly like intimate relations with someone. Do what feels best if your feelings are the most important.
 
I can appreciate your point, Bart - Not taking anything away from his tremendous skill, I (secretly) roll my eyes when someone writes the right way to shoot a revolver is the way Jerry Miculek says to do it.

I'm all for experimenting, and have been experimenting with canting the rifle. It really didn't matter to me who made the recommendation, but it seemed to offer a more natural hold. Your advice is valuable, too, though, and it's entirely possible I'll ultimately get a better result without canting, in which case, canting goes bye-bye.:rolleyes:
 
Improve Iron Sights? On an AR, put masking tape over the rear sight and poke a small hole through with a pencil. Watch the difference.
 
Iron sights aren't that difficult. If using a rear aperture with a post your eyes automatically want to center the post in the rear sight.

To test this, take a empty paper tow roll. Find an object at some distance and look at it through the roll. Your eyes will automatically want to center that object in the hole.

The problem lies in fundamentals. Irons or glass you need to concentrate on marksmanship fundamentals. You screw them up you cant shoot irons or glass.

You have to have a natural point of aim, you have to concentrate on you front sight. You CANNOT allow any muscling of the rifle.

You cant breath and shoot at the same time. You will stop breathing the instant you pull the trigger. So you want to shoot while you are breathing naturally at the longest NATURAL pause in your breathing cycle, that will be when your lungs release the air before they take in more air.

To keep from muscling your rifle your natural point of aim should be at the bottom of the breathing cycle when you are totally relaxed.

If your position forces you to muscle the rifle onto the target to get your NPA its not a NATURAL point of aim, its a forced point of aim, and when you fire you're going to relax, taking the sights off the target, this will screw up your shot. Wouldn't it be better to have your point of aim in a natural relaxed state. That being at the bottom of the breathing cycle. You are already relaxed so after firing there will be no falling back after recoil.

Our bodies are accustomed to flinching when we are going to be hit, regardless of how hard we think we are going to be hit. Have some one strike you in the arm, doesn't have to be hard, just knowing you're going to be hit causes you to tense up. That is not natural. If you don't know you're going to be hit, or don't know when, you will less likely tense up.

This is where trigger control comes in. Squeeze the trigger until you get a surprised break of the sear. It its surprised, then the recoil will be surprised also, which means you are less likely to tense up.

I don't care how big and tough you are, you are going to tense up, no way around it. In the south west many road houses had a large jar on the counter with a rattle snake inside. You paid your money and if you could hold your hand on the jar while the snake struck at you, you won what ever prize was offered. I've never seen anyone who could hold their hand on the glass while the snake struck, even knowing the snake couldn't strike through the glass you pulled away. Its a natural reaction. Its the same with recoil, your body will tense up (flinch) unless its a surprise and you don't know when the recoil will occur.

Then there is follow through, once the trigger releases, hold it through out the recoil only letting it reset as you fall back into your NPA which will or should put you back on target.

This all applies regardless if you're shooting irons or glass. and all of it is impossible unless you have a solid position.

If I can see the target, I can shoot irons better then glass. My best 1000 yard scores were with irons.

Some people say, that too high a power scope causes the cross hairs to dance around too much. Truth of the matter is the rifle is always dancing around. The difference is you see it with a high power scope where you don't with irons or low power glass.

The problem is since you see the dancing around, you get psyched out which forces you to muscle the rifle trying to hold it on the target. Muscling ruins your fundamentals.

Shooting is a head game, its 90% + mental. The more MENTAL you can remove with a relaxed position and surprised shot the better you're going to be.
 
If using a rear aperture with a post your eyes automatically want to center the post in the rear sight. To test this, take a empty paper tow roll. Find an object at some distance and look at it through the roll. Your eyes will automatically want to center that object in the hole.
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With due respect your other virtues, Kraig, that one's an old myth.

I just tried it again with a paper towel's cardboard tube. When I put it up to my eye (either one, left or right) and held it still, any misalignment of a distant object to the tube's axis stayed there. No automatic desire to center nor actual centering happened. That object only got centered in the tube when I conciously moved the tube so its axis was aligned with a line from the object to my eye.

Did it the real way with a Garand clamped in an accuracy cradle used to test them for accuracy. It was a standard service grade with standard service rear sight aperture; big enough for a worm to crawl through. Had all 6 members of a newly formed military team sit down and look through the sights that I'd earlier moved the cradle to get a perfect 6-o'clock sight picture on the 300 yard 19" bullseye. Some of these guys had commented that it didn't matter how you positioned your eye behind the aperture; the target would automatically center.

Well, every one to a man saw the front sight move relative to the target as they moved their aiming eye all over behind the rear sight. They would come onto it from all directions stopping as soon as the front sight and target were visible through the aperture at its edge. Only when they moved their aiming eye dead center behind the aperture did the front sight perfectly have a 6-o'clock hold on the bullseye. So, when their aiming eye was off center in some direction on the aperture the rifle's front sight would have to move in that same direction keeping the aperture in place and that would make a shot fired with that sight picture go in the same direction off dead center on the bullseye.

Have you ever favored a shot in team match when the coach sees the wind pick up from the right, called "2 right" and instead of going out of position then making two clicks on the windage knob before going back into your NPA, you just moved the rifle a bit with the bullseye and front post directly under it to the right side of the field of view through the NM2A match rear sight then fired the shot and see it strike dead center?

Then this comment that so darned few people know about and don't cure:
Then there is follow through, once the trigger releases, hold it through out the recoil only letting it reset as you fall back into your NPA which will or should put you back on target.
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"Finger Flickers" have a nervous condition that as soon as their trigger finger senses the sear releasing the firing pin or hammer, their nervous system makes those muscles twitch and "flick" their trigger finger off the trigger's finger lever; probablyout of fear of shooting another round even though they've not loaded it. That slight movement transfers to the rifle. And it's enough to move the barrel axis off its intended point to make the bullet in it strike away from dead center. Hold that trigger finger back against the stop until you feel yourself stop moving from the rifle's recoil. It only takes a second or two; be patient. Shoot where the rifle's aimed at, not someplace way out in left field.

And keep your aiming eye open while all this happens so you can see where the sights were about the target when the round fired. If you're shooting a semiauto and don't remember seeing the empty fly out of the action, your eyes were closed when the rifle fired.
 
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