Resizing is an extrusion process. Over time the shoulder is extruded out into the neck and trimmed off and replaced by brass moved in from the case body. The difference is that it is materially not the original shoulder being set back but rather more like being pushed past. So, you can argue semantics, but that literally refers to different ways of saying the same thing. It may be picking nits to most, but "setting the shoulder back" and "extruding in or exchanging material" aren't saying the exact same thing. The difference is important to understanding the process, but only for those who are interested.
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adjusting coal to the lands "methods"
- Thread starter oley55
- Start date
Thus, the shoulder brass doesn't actually relocate down to original position, it gets displaced
So you have a lot of time and gigs of space used claiming you can bump the shoulder back and or the shoulder moves back and I have said that is impossible. I have said I have sized and or formed cases that have artifacts that prove it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.
I never said I could not shorten the case between the shoulder and case head the failure of the reloading world failed to understand the shoulder I finish with is not the same shoulder I started with.
And now you want to invent another new term like displaced? Some of you guys are too desperate for attention.
And then there is the 'dreaded' donut; I have said I have cases that will never form a donut and I have chambers/cases that 'by design' are guaranteed to form donuts when fired and I form cases that create donuts before being fired, or I could say form donuts while being formed. Because of the donut I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back or bump the shoulder back; all you reloaders want to do is argue.
And you have no clue what it means to full length size a case with a die that has case body support.
I wasted time and space saying I sized cases with dies that did not have case body support, I turned them into cases with bellows above the case body/shoulder juncture. I also added the part about description; I said the cases took on the appearance of having bellows.
F. Guffey
We are back to doing the semantics dance.
I did not expect you to sell out that easy, you go from "only in your mind" to the semantics dance.
I have no problem with those that have no curiosity and are not motivated to take a press, die, case and shell holder and do all it can do, and then there are those that blame me for what they do not understand and or can not do.
F. Guffey
is it just me or do these endless circular semantic arguments annoy more than educate?
Definitely annoy.
Don
Unclenick
Thanks for getting back , I asked Guff but he didn't answer back , he's getting bumped on and seems to be dueling more . My question to him was when using the go gage for a 308 caliber 1.630 by adding a .002 shim with a stripped bolt , only the housing for better feel . With the shim and gage measuring 1.632 wouldn't that be my chamber measurement from bolt face to shoulder ? For the life of me I can't see how it doesn't . What am I missing . Oh Yes , your graphs are something else . Thanks Again .
Chris
Thanks for getting back , I asked Guff but he didn't answer back , he's getting bumped on and seems to be dueling more . My question to him was when using the go gage for a 308 caliber 1.630 by adding a .002 shim with a stripped bolt , only the housing for better feel . With the shim and gage measuring 1.632 wouldn't that be my chamber measurement from bolt face to shoulder ? For the life of me I can't see how it doesn't . What am I missing . Oh Yes , your graphs are something else . Thanks Again .
Chris
CW bottom line is if the only thing that really matters is if you are getting good accuracy and good case life and from your past posts I tend to think you are. But the main thing is to have fun and learning new ways to do things is always rewarding. That's the great thing about this hobby, seems like I constantly re examine my methods or buy a new toy for the bench just to see what it does.
Unclenick
Thanks for getting back , I asked Guff but he didn't answer back , he's getting bumped on and seems to be dueling more . My question to him was when using the go gage for a 308 caliber 1.630 by adding a .002 shim with a stripped bolt , only the housing for better feel . With the shim and gage measuring 1.632 wouldn't that be my chamber measurement from bolt face to shoulder ? For the life of me I can't see how it doesn't . What am I missing . Oh Yes , your graphs are something else . Thanks Again .
Chris
You ask me? and I did not answer?
I said the go gage is a standard, I am the fan of standards. If the bolt closes on a go gage the chamber has .004" clearance if the shooter is using minimum length/full length sized ammo or factor loaded 308W ammo.
You claimed you added a .002" shim to the go gage when checking the length of your chamber. What effect did the .002" feeler gage have on the test?
If you added .002" to the length of the go gage when checking the length of the chamber 'AND' the bolt closed on the .002" spacer and the go gage you have a long chamber. HOW LONG?
ADD the 002" to the length of the go gage, for the 308W that would be .006" clearance when using minimum length/full length sized, factory over the counter ammo.
The difference between a 30/06 chamber in length and the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head is .005. That means when a shooter fires factory, full length sized, minimum length ammo in a go gage length chamber there is .005" clearance between the case head and bolt face or as some insist between the shoulder of the case to the shoulder of the chamber.
Again: I have a 30/06 chamber that has a chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a factory, over the counter, new ammo when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case head. For me that is not a problem, I know how the rifle got that way and I know who 'DID-IT". I also understand the long chamber has .011" clearance when firing minimum length/full length sized ammo. I understand the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject length gage.
Now for the impossible part to understand for most reloaders: All I have to do to form cases for the long chamber is add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head. I use the Remington 280 case; I shim the 30/06 die off the shell holder (making sure the press is not a cam over press) .014". After sizing I remove the case and measure/verify. To most it must seem like magic but when finished I have the magic .002" clearance.
F. Guffey
You are making this much harder than it is. All you have to do is adjust your sizing die so that it bumps the shoulder back so that you have the correct amount of case headspace and your bolt just... closes on it. There, I managed to get 2 banned words in 1 sentence.
Sounds great, it would sound greater if the case had head space. And then there is that matter of sticking the head space and the feeler gage in the chamber when closing the bolt. The die, press and shell holder is designed to return the case to minimum length.
Now I am trying to type as slow as this old machine will allow: He has a long chamber; what would I do if I had a long chamber? I would add to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head; SO? I would add a .004: shim between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder when adjusting the case for a long chamber. After making the adjustment I would secure the die to the press with the lock nut.
After making the adjustment I could test by raising the ram and checking the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. AND! This will not work on a cam over press...….because it bumps.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
If the go gage has a measurement on the gage of 1.630 and I added a .002 shim at closed bolt why wouldn't it be 1.632 . Long or short chambers don't bother me , I'll size to fit but when a gage is listed for example 1.630 and chambers Go and you can add a .003 shim and No Go wouldn't the chamber when it chambers with a .002 shim be 1.632 . Seems pretty simple to me .
Chris
If the go gage has a measurement on the gage of 1.630 and I added a .002 shim at closed bolt why wouldn't it be 1.632 . Long or short chambers don't bother me , I'll size to fit but when a gage is listed for example 1.630 and chambers Go and you can add a .003 shim and No Go wouldn't the chamber when it chambers with a .002 shim be 1.632 . Seems pretty simple to me .
Chris
USSR
I'm not having a problem with sizing , the problem started when I was explaining how I found chamber measurements , seemed pretty simple to me but it opened a can of worms for some reason . Hay , trouble maker . Bump the shoulder back and headspace , that's as bad as kicking a dog , fighten words . Be Well
Chris
I'm not having a problem with sizing , the problem started when I was explaining how I found chamber measurements , seemed pretty simple to me but it opened a can of worms for some reason . Hay , trouble maker . Bump the shoulder back and headspace , that's as bad as kicking a dog , fighten words . Be Well
Chris
Seems pretty simple to me .
There is something that can be said for 'wringing', I stack a go gage with a .002" shim and get the 'sum of which'.
The summation of the sequence [1, 2, 4, 2] is an expression whose value is the sum of each of the members of the sequence. In the example, 1 + 2 + 4 + 2 = 9. Because addition is associative, the sum does not depend on how the additions are grouped, for instance (1 + 2) + (4 + 2) and 1 + ((2 + 4) + 2) both have the value 9; therefore, parentheses are usually omitted in repeated additions.
When wringing I verify, for me that is not a problem because I have no hang-ups about datums. What are you missing? To me it looks like no one gets it.
I make gages, that is not a popular thing, You have a go-gage. You do not have a minimum length/full length sized case gage; that is go-gage length less clearance.
And I have asked what is it about the go-gage that causes all the excitement among reloaders. There is the go-gage, there is the no go-gage and another gage referred to as being a field reject length gage. I have a resource person on anything military; he has no fewer than 20 30/06 head space gages. When I have helped him check the length of chambers on his builds I have never used one of his head space gages because I measure the length of the chamber in thousandths. AND! He shoots ammo, not gages. He understands the part about the chamber is .0075" longer than his factory/full length sized ammo from the shoulder of the case to the case head. By design and in the perfect world he should have .005" clearance.
F. Guffey
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Mr. Guffey compared it to a maximum length SAAMI cartridge. Commercially made ammunition is almost all about 0.006" shorter than maximum. The maximum is set by an engineering practice called critical dimensioning. In most mechanisms, a critical dimension is one beyond which the parts cannot be assembled or made to function. A SAAMI maximum rimless bottleneck cartridge dimension from the shoulder datum to the outside of the head is typically longer than the minimum chamber headspace dimension by a few thousandths. It would seem like that would make it impossible to close the bolt or fire the gun, but the maximum diameters for the cartridge are smaller than the minimum diameters of the chamber, so you can force a bolt closed on a minimum chamber with a maximum cartridge and the case will expand to fill the chamber and fire. So the head-to-shoulder length is only at a critical maximum when it is too long even for that forcing to work, as it runs out of diameter to expand into.
All that said, the reason manufactured ammo doesn't use that tight maximum dimension is feed reliability. Having to jam things together is not what you want in a self-loader, in particular, as it will probably fail to feed. But SAAMI dimensions are geared toward manually closed bolts.
All that said, the reason manufactured ammo doesn't use that tight maximum dimension is feed reliability. Having to jam things together is not what you want in a self-loader, in particular, as it will probably fail to feed. But SAAMI dimensions are geared toward manually closed bolts.
I'll size to fit but when a gage is listed for example 1.630 and chambers Go and you can add a .003 shim and No Go wouldn't the chamber when it chambers with a .002 shim be 1.632 . Seems pretty simple to me .
"It seems pretty simple to you?" You can not believe how simple it is, you need to learn to use 'the datum'; you do not have to talk about the datum among your friends. When using a head space gage I verify the gage, I trust the gage and then there is that thing "the sum of which"..
F. Guffey
Wow , felt like I was back in High School , thank God for sports or I'd still be there . Never really had the 1.630 question answered only double talk . Sorry for asking , I'll stick to what I'm doing , To All have a Happy & Healthy Holiday .
Chris
PS Sorry oley55 for highjacking your Thread
Chris
PS Sorry oley55 for highjacking your Thread
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Never really had the 1.630 question answered only double talk .
You should put some effort into answering your own question. I start out with a lot of given; the datum diameter of the 30/06 is .375", the datum diameter of the 308 W is .400" and the datum diameter for the 300 Win Mag is .410".
The 1.630 you are having trouble should be expressed as 1.630", if you can not come up with a datum that is .400" in diameter forget about verifying the gage. That applies when checking magnum cases with a .410" diameter, round hole datum.
Many years ago I suggested the datum was not a line, I suggested it is a circle/round hole and the round hole datum for the 30/06 family of cases was .375". And then I suggested reloaders drill a round hole with a 3/8" diameter drill bit and or use a 3/8" reamer with an undersize hole. Instead they head for the hardware to purchases bushing with 3/8" holes with no clue the radius at the end of the hole defeated the purpose of the datum like Sinclair/Hornady.
answered only double talk
RC20 repeats an old quite from 'guess who?' The quote goes something like "reloading is not for everyone".
You are very selective about members that you participate with, I suggest you ask one of them what is the difference between 1.630 and 1.630". I also suggest you ask one of them what the 1.630" represents; because you believe the datum is a joke good luck verifying the gage, case, chamber and die.
F. Guffey