Adding a "fifth" rule to firearm safety

Pax,

I think this is one of those "failure to communicate" issues.

You are really missing my point. I am not saying that it is safe to point the gun after checking it is clear.

I am saying that IT IS NEVER SAFE TO ASSUME A GUN IS NOT LOADED.

I don't care about other peoples posts. I assume that even after I have checked a gun it is still a potential danger, even when I KNOW it is not loaded. It is a habit. It keeps me from shooting people or things. Sometimes what you KNOW and what is ACTUAL don't happen to coincide. Years of experience have taught me to constantly question my certainties.

All guns are loaded (until you've checked the gun, then you can do something stupid with it)
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This may be what other people think but it is not what the rule states. I'm a pretty technical guy. I follow rules to the letter. I do not employ my "interpretation" if I don't have to.

Always assume a gun is loaded. Pretty simple. If you do anything else, you're not following the rule. Even after checking thrice that a gun is unloaded, I follow that rule. The other rules are backup for stupid people.

Once again, I grew up with guns. I learned this lesson at the age of 9. It is sacrosanct.

Maybe you should be arguing that people that alter rule #1 are the problem?
 
SwampYankee,

I tried that, for years.

The rules overlap and are redundant for a reason. For whatever reason, they DO **** up Rule One on a depressingly regular basis. The least we can do is talk them into following the others.

pax
 
I agree with SwampYankee. It's not about ignoring the other 3 if you make sure that it's really, really, really not loaded.... it's about the other 3 being AUTOMATIC if you UNDERSTAND #1.

The fact that I check, double check and then triple check that the gun is, in fact, NOT loaded, doesn't change the way I handle the gun afterwords, except to the extent that if I thought it might be loaded I wouldn't actually pull the trigger to begin disassembly, for example.
 
First, I'm glad that your step daughter is OK, kraigwy.

That said, I have conflicting thoughts about a Rule #5. On the one hand, if the guy doing the work had followed Rules #1-#4, he wouldn't need Rule #5. And I agree that fewer rules are easier for most folks to follow than many. On the other, making the workshop an ammo-free zone would seem like a good idea.
 
I added a "fifth" rule, Never clean or work on a firearm when ammunition with live ammo in the area.
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Why would you stop there?

No ammo in the same room where one is dry firing.

No dry firing without an adequate back stop.

Open the chamber on your shotgun before crossing a fence (when you're alone)

Don't leave a loaded firearm leaning against a tree.

Never pick up a gun without checking the chamber to verify that it's unloaded. Even if you recently did so.

etc, etc, etc.

If we wrote a new rule for all the individual circumstances that have caused gun accidents, there'd be no end to them. And if you look close enough, the BASIC rules probably already apply.


Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
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A firearm instructor who failed to differentiate between the unloaded and the loaded magazine......

A firearm instructor who put his finger on the trigger....

... when the firearm was pointed in an unsafe direction...

Hmmm.... I don't think I need to say anymore.

There is no room for error with firearms. Rule # 5 may just be the clincher, for those who don't absolutely get the first four. Yet, someone will still ND somehow and we will be adding rule 6. /c:

BTW kraigwy - sorry I was an ass re: an earlier thread. I had a bad day, not your fault... Hope we can share conversation and hope I can learn to shoot the AR better.
 
I agree with Pax on this.

Rule 1 has to be violated.
The other three are the ones that shouldn't be violated, and are the ones that cause the problem.
 
Never clean or work on a firearm when ammunition with live ammo in the area.
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May I add never dry-fire a weapon with live ammo in the same room, I learned this lesson years ago:eek:, enough said.
 
I have to dry fire near where I reload

The absolute sanest backdrop I could ever have is in the garage which is also the only sane place for me to reload. My solution: a no-go spot for ammo, 10 feet from the reloading bench, and only dry fire my rimfire guns. The rimfire ammo could leak and find its way into the quarantine zone, but I've at least added a couple of links to the chain of mistakes I'd have to make for an ND.

All of the guns I am interested in have .22 analogues. Except the M1 Garand. Anybody got a recommendation for an 8.5 lb .22?
 
I have a few other rules. Most of you may laugh at them but they weren't made up for no reason.

Don't hot load your ammunition. If you want .357 performance out of your .38 special, get a .357 in the first place. If you want .44 magnum performance out of a .44 special or a .45 Colt, get a .44 magnum.

Likewise, for rifles, don't load ammunition that's only good for certain rifles. This is especially true for the old .45-70.

Don't take both a .44 and a .45 revolver to the range at the same time. The ammunition is too similiar.

Your commercial shooting range may have a nice display of disassembled handguns that will tell you why.
 
Peetzakilla said:
I agree with SwampYankee. It's not about ignoring the other 3 if you make sure that it's really, really, really not loaded.... it's about the other 3 being AUTOMATIC if you UNDERSTAND #1.

The fact that I check, double check and then triple check that the gun is, in fact, NOT loaded, doesn't change the way I handle the gun afterwords, except to the extent that if I thought it might be loaded I wouldn't actually pull the trigger to begin disassembly, for example.
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This post is exactly what I was going to say. If you always obey #1, then 2, 3 and 4 are automatic.
 
Like said already, it doesnt matter what the rules say, its the discipline of the people "following" the rules that makes the biggest difference. I have everything at my desk; reloading components, live ammo, handguns in the drawer. I dont have a whole lot of experience but to date I havent even come close to anything bad happening.

My house has a crawl space, I point my revolvers at the floor when dry firing. After checking obviously. I even swing the crane open after a full revolution. I was hunting last night, and swung the crane open just to verify that it WAS loaded!
 
Always handle a firearm as if it were going to go off at any moment.

Keep your finger off the trigger until the firearm is pointed at the target and you're ready to fire.

Keep the safety on until the firearm is pointed at the target and you're ready to fire.

Always handle a firearm as if it were going to go off at any moment.
 
No, these 4 from Jeff Cooper, and not re-written:

All guns are always loaded.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

Identify your target, and what is behind it.
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No changing of Coope's original intent are acceptable.
 
Not "freaks me out" like I think it shouldn't be neccesary or the design is flawed but like every time I go to do it I go "WHOA! WHOA! You are about to pull the trigger on a firearm! Are you REALLY sure it's unloaded!"
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I feel the same about my Glocks whenever I clean them. Not only do I lock the slide back and check visually, I have adopted sticking my little finger into the chamber. Even after that, I'll still take it out on the deck and point it at the ground. Just goes against my grain is all, to have to pull that trigger on what looks like a ready weapon.:eek:
 
I had an instructor give us a 5th rule that I really liked and continue to use:
DDSS: Dont Do STUPID Stuff! You can't tell me that 99% of the people who have ND's had no idea what they were doing was STUPID! They may have ingnored that fact, but Id venture to guess they still knew!
 
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