Actual Pressure Difference from OAL?? -9mm

OP, I have had to seat deeper than Min OAL for a specific firearm/projectile. I believe it was by roughly the same distance you referenced. I stuck with minimum loads out of paranoia for a long time. Eventually I started working up a little, and found that loads in the middle of the data were getting a little snappy and starting to throw brass about where +p factory loads would go.

So... That's my experience with 700x and hs-6 in 9mm. Very different powders. I went to hs6 because I was afraid 700x burn rate would pressure spike much quicker when I worked up above minimum.

At any rate, I stick with that same mid load now and its my go to. If you use a little common sense you will be fine. Roll with it and use the starting load. Work up slowly.
 
As long as you are not already dealing with a maximum load, but are below max , say middle of the road load , 0.025 is not going to boost pressure to a dangerous level. It will boost it a little . Maybe to max or +P levels .Shoot one or two and inspect the fired cases. If too hot ...bullet pulling time .
With an already maximum load it just may boost it over into/over +P , but safety calls for bullet pulling and a drop in powder.
Don't do it with +P loads , that 0.025 is just too risky to chance the increase in pressure into the danger zone .
The big problem comes when a bullet hits the feed ramp and is driven back into the case on top of the powder charge....that's BAD ! Make sure your bullets are securely held by the case.
When developing loads in the 9 mm I start just above minimum , if I need to seat the bullet deeper there will be no pressure problems. The 9 mm and some pistols are very particular to seating depth....Once I get the depth adjusted I can fine tune the powder charge for accuracy.
Load safe,
Gary
Gary
 
Actual Pressure Difference from OAL?? -9mm

Actual? There are factors, one day I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff; I did not agree so I called Hodgdon, they said I was not into some risky stuff 'yet'.

I was forming cases for a wildcat, you are asking about the 9mm, there is a maximum load and minimum length.

F. Guffey
 
Seb7701,

Two things to keep in mind:

1) The main issue is how much powder space there is. For that purpose, since bullet design gives same-weight bullets different lengths, the same COL will not give you the same amount of powder space when you have two different bullet lengths for the same weight. The smaller the powder volume per inch of case length under the bullet as compared to bullet volume per inch of length, the less you have to change bullet seating depth to cause a given percent change in powder space. So this is a relatively modest sensitivity issue in an overbore bottleneck rifle case, but a very big issue in a stubby straight wall (or close to it) pistol case.

For the purpose of powder space, then, it is not COL¹ itself, but its effect on seating depth you want to control. Seating depth is how far the bullet is inserted into the case.

SEATING DEPTH = CASE LENGTH + BULLET LENGTH - COL

Use the above calculation to find the COL of a load whose pressure you want to duplicate. Then add the difference between that bullet's length and your bullet's length to determine a NEW COL that will give your bullet the same seating depth as the original load. Where your bullet is shorter, the difference in length is a negative number, and being longer is positive. If you find keeping track of the rule of addition for a negative number (you subtract its magnitude) too annoying to remember, you get the same result by rearranging the above formula as:

NEW COL = CASE LENGTH + BULLET LENGTH - SEATING DEPTH

2) Bullet material has an effect. The coated lead bullets are softer than jacketed bullets and don't tend to be grasped as firmly in the case neck, so they are unseated at lower pressure with the result they raise pressure a bit less as you change their seating depth. They also require less pressure to swage into the rifling lands, so having them in contact with the throat at firing. Indeed, with all lead and coated bullets, where my magazine length from front to back and the gun's ability to feed will allow it, I always seat these bullets out to contact the lands and I work the loads up with them in that position. It keeps them more concentric in the bore and less prone to being unbalanced by swaging into the bore at an angle, which they are soft enough to do. In .45 Auto with short bearing surface lead bullets, I found this practice cut machine rest groups size by about 40%, and it also greatly reduced leading. A coated bullet doesn't generally cause leading, but it is soft, so the accuracy effect still applies.

Powder or resin coated bullets and thin copper plated bullets respond like lead. Thick soft copper plated bullets are generally between lead and jacketed bullet hardness and behavior, so you have to work your loads up carefully to see what pressure signs may or may not occur.​

Second from right is how I seat soft bullets to prevent distortion of them:

attachment.php



hdwhit said:
The rate at which smokeless propellants generate gas is governed by a differential equation with pressure and temperature components, not an exponential function…

Don't forget the first two lines of the famous MIT cheer (which I put down in its entirety for amusement of those unfamiliar with it):

"e to the x, dy, dx,
e to the x, dx.
Secant, tangent, cosine, sine,
3.14159.
Square root, cube root, log base e,
Cheers for math at MIT. "​

For more detail of the relevance of the first two lines, read here. In part, it says:

"By studying the exponential functions, and picking a convenient base, we have inadvertently stumbled on a relationship satisfied by the function and its derivative. That relationship is called a differential equation."​

But the exception doesn't disprove the rule in this instance. What you said about the inadequacy of linear interpolation is exactly correct, and it gets worse for those who attempt linear extrapolation beyond provided load pressure data. But for seating depth changes, or for incremental charge weight change, an exponential least squares curve fit generally turns out to be a closer fit than shot-to-shot variation.

If I use QuickLOAD's combustion model, here is an example:

Code:
.45 Auto, 230 grain FMJ, 5 grains Bullseye	
Δ COL	 COL	 peak psi	Δ psi
 0      1.275      16325	
-0.025	1.250	   17856	1531
-0.025	1.225	   19751	1895
-0.025	1.200	   22136	2385
-0.025	1.175	   25265	3129

The reason each increment deeper seating depth produces greater change in peak pressure than the previous one did (and does so with a close fit to an exponential correlation (R² = -0.997)) is that each successive subtraction of the same volume from the case represents a greater portion of the remaining powder space than subtraction of the preceding increment did. The powder type affects the actual amount of bend in the curve, of course, as does the bullet weight, as will anything that changes starting pressure (crimping, jamming the lands, differing bullet hardness, etc.). I don't think anyone meant to suggest there is a universal usable exponent value.



¹COL stands for Cartridge Overall Length. You also see COAL (Cartridge Over-all Length), CL, OAL, and OL. The hyphenated form of 'overall' as 'over-all' used to be employed to distinguish the former, meaning all things considered, from the latter, meaning the total length of a boat or arrow or other missile. By the 1960's the hyphen was dropped from Webster's and the single form, overall, came to be used for both meanings. In general, according to Webster's, hyphenation is a practice gradually disappearing from the English language, with the married names of women being the only area of growth in their use.
 
Thanks 5whiskey, Gary and Unclenick - really good food for thought there, particular with regard to seating depth equations which, I might add just finally made sense...

One of the posts I located last night contained a page from the Lyman cast bullet reloading manual which, as It happens, had the perfect load for a start -
124gn CN, OAL 1.050 using 4.4 to 4.9gn off Unique (which is an ADI AP70 equiv. - my powder), quoting 25700 to 30700 cup.

As such, I have loaded a small number with 4.2gn at 1.100" to see what the primers look like afterwards, as well as a bunch at 1.125" to use in my 92A1.
Fingers crossed, I would think I am in safe territory here, but did just find that a friend of mine has been loading exactly that without any apparent loss of body parts/digits...yet..

I am fairly new to this reloading biz, so appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me regarding this stuff, especially as an unknown of the forum - thanks again gents!!
 
5whiskey,

Glad to help.


Seb7701,

AP70N is not a match to Unique. It does lend itself to many similar applications, but seldom with the same charge weight. In this country AP70N is sold as Hodgdon Universal, and Hodgdon's online data lists its charge weights as much as 25% lighter than same-peak-pressure charge weights for Unique with 124-125 grain bullets in the 9 mm. When I take the load data from Hodgdon and use the ratio of logs of charge weight percent change to peak pressure change, I get an estimate of 3.5 to 3.6 grains of AD70N producing about 930 fps from a tightly dimensioned test barrel chamber. QuickLOAD has this powder a bit slower and thinks the difference will be smaller (though still lighter than Unique), but it is based on past lots. I trust Hodgdon's measurements to be more current as they updated their measurements periodically. You will likely find your gun is not as tight in the chamber as the test gun, but the latter is the safe starting point.

You don't need to disassemble what you loaded. Just find a few cases and start lower and work up until you know what you put together is good in your gun.

It's virtually never a good idea to use charge weights for one powder with another unless measured test data shows that to be good to go. With two different powders it can happen that you get a match in one cartridge and bullet combination but be significantly different in another. It's just the nature the materials we are dealing with. The flakes for these two powders have different proportions, so the pressure curves they generate will not be the same and thus won't match at all pressures and for all expansion rates.

Here is a chart that shows the different names for many powders that are truly the same and have multiple names. It may give you a better sense of where you can look for supplementary load data:

Code:
Powders from 2009 MSDS sheets (some newer MSDS sheets lack the powder name information due to
changes in MSDS requirement regulations).

Note that bulk grade versions have wider burn rate specs and can vary significantly from the
canister grades, which are controlled for burn rate by blending with held back fast or slow 
lots, as needed to adjust them to within ±3% of their nominal burn rates.

     Canister      | Bulk Grade |       Canister         | Canister |      Canister        |
      Grade        |            |        Grade           |  Grade   |       Grade          |
                   | St. Marks  |                        |          |                      |
     Hodgdon       | Mil & OEM  |      Winchester        | Thales   |        IMR           |
___________________|__Numbers___|________________________|__(ADI)___|______________________|_
                   |            |                        |          |                      |
HP-38--------------|-- OBP231 --|- 231 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP124   |  AALite (WFL)          |          |                      |
Titewad            |   OBP132   |                        |          |                      |
Tightgroup --------|-- OBP242 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP465   |  Super-Handicap (WSH)  |          |                      |
Longshot           |   OBP473   |                        |          |                      |
Lil' Gun ----------|-- OBP516 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
Hybrid 100V        |   SHP771   |                        |          |                      |
                   |   SMP224   |  AutoComp              |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WAA90 --|- WST ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H110               |    WC296   |  296                   |          |                      |
HS-6               |    WC540   |  540                   |          |                      |
HS-7               |    WC571   |  571                   |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WC748 --|- 748 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H414               |    WC760   |  760                   |          |                      |
H335               |    WC844   |                        |          |                      |
BL-C(2)------------|--- WC846 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H380               |    WC852   |                        |          |                      |
US869              |    WC869   |                        |          |                      |
-------------------|-- WMR780 --|- Supreme 780 ----------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   WXC170   |  WSF                   |          |                      |
Clays              |            |                        |  AS30N   |                      |
International Clays|------------|------------------------|- AS50N --|----------------------|-
Universal Clays    |            |                        |  AP70N   |                      |
H4227              |            |                        |  AR2205  |IMR 4227 second source|
H4198 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2207 -|----------------------|-
                   |            |                        |   BM1    |                      |
H322               |            |                        |  AR2219  |                      |
Benchmark          |            |                        |   BM2    |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2210 -|- IMR 8208 XBR -------|-
H4895              |            |                        |  AR2206H |                      |
Varget             |            |                        |  AR2208  |                      |
H4350 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2209 -|----------------------|-
H4831              |            |                        |  AR2213  |                      |
H4831SC            |            |                        | AR2213SC |                      |
H1000 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2217 -|----------------------|-
Retumbo            |            |                        |  AR2225  |                      |
H50BMG             |            |                        |  AR2218  |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2215 -|IMR 4198 second source|
                   |            |                        |  AS25BP  |IMR Trail Boss        |
 
Thanks mate - funny as the ADI 'equivalents' listed Unique, but yep, the figures never looked quite right as opposed to Universal for example.

As it happens, I only loaded 25 rounds at 1.100 for the Kimber and found some slight cratering of the primers, which were not flattened.

I did load 100 more, but at 1.125" for my Beretta, so I wouldn't imagine any real issues there as they are as per the ADI listing for that bullet type. Further to that, the bullets are actually measuring 123-124gn rather than the advertised 125, so that's at least on the safe side too.
ADI listing says -
125 GR. LCN AP70N .356" 1.125" 3.8gn 993fps 24400 cup 4.3gns 1096fps 31300 cup
I loaded them at 4.2gns, so I can't see them being anything dangerous, though I am going to back off to around 3.9 and try a couple.

I did a couple of Berry's plated pills at 4.2gn also at 1.125, but they're 115gn, so surely no issue there either I would hope!!
 
I have some of those truncated cones loaded about like your 1.125" picture. (Sorry, my actual OAL is not right at hand.) I am using them in one gun where they feed and chamber well. I

I do not have Quckload and I quit searching the manuals once I have a starting load to go from. But I do have a chronograph. My "work up" is to determine an OAL that feeds well and then gradually increase the powder charge until I reach Minor Power Factor. I have not yet had to flirt with the maximum listed load to get there.
 
Thanks Jim - a chrono sounds like a must and is next on the shopping list.
I will say this - the CN's pills shoot ok. Tried the the Kimber and the 92A1 on a rest and whilst it was only a measly 10 metres, the 92A1 clover leafed (left side target) and he Kimber not far behind. Good start I would say!!
 

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I was a resident of Sydney, 1965 to 1968 (Cronic hater of Australia Wife!) moved to Canada, exchanged Wife! Now in Florida for 14 years, Wife of 25 years (No 2 and keeper!)

My Question, how do you own pistols in Aus? By the way, I never reload the chambered round in my carry Gen 4 Glock 19. It goes into a cartridge box, upside down, fired on the range. Only shoot factory rounds now, when I reloaded for my classes (Toronto Canada) 700X was the only powder I used, purchased in 12lb? drums, 3.5g of 700X behind a 160g plated round nose, 38 spl. These loaded rounds fed perfectly from speed loaders.
Is IDPA a sport you can get into, in Queensland?
I remember well my first schooner of ice cold Touyes! Not clear on the spelling of that beer. Gday Mate!
 
Hey there Brit! Well, I would definitely agree that wife troubles happen, but I found that when I fixed that problem, there were few others to worry about!!!

Here in QLD, we basically have to participate in 6 competitive shoots per year to maintain a cat H license, although most clubs have LOTS of 'competitions', including some where you can go, have a shoot and essentially 'compete' against yourself. Then to own more than 1 pistol, the number simply goes up from 6 to 8. From there, it's really not a big issue, except you will have to justify more than two of the same calibre. Again, they just ask the question, but don't appear to get in the way too much.

With the GLOCK, are you referring to the projectile eventually receding back into the casing after repeated chambering and unloading? This is something we see all the time at work, but has only rarely caused an issue, although I have heard of it. We generally try and rotate rounds in the mag in that respect. I am more worried about the gun - my last GLOCK got tossed after two cracks in the frame...

I am yet to get into IPSC, but sure would like to take a look into it.
 
Thanks to all the folks here on the forum for sharing your experience with those of us that are new to reloading.
My experience was similar to the OP. I had reloaded several calibers successfully, but ran into issues the first time I reloaded 9mm. When I seated Hornady xtp's to 1.125 (per my manual) they wouldn't chamber in my eaa witness. I learned a couple of things here and on other forums, such as -

it's a good idea to do a plunk test.
Xtp bullets have wide shoulders and won't chamber at a col where other bullets will.
It's easier to seat a bullet deeper on a press rather than by slamming the pistol into battery.

Since I had loaded that batch to minimum levels, I was able to safely seat them a little deeper (on the press except for the first 2 I fired) until they chambered. But I also learned here to trust what's tried and true (like published reloading data), so I now use different bullets for my eaa reloads.
 
Seb7701.

Hi,

IDPA is more your style, per your Job, a lot more realistic. And you can compete with your issued pistol (if allowed) loved the employment rules in NSW.

5 Sickys a year. Long term 3 month leave after 15 years, same company.
Called Walk about leave, I think. Bondi beach! Life Guards carried 3 emergency Bikinis, in a Band Aid box!

Keep Safe.
 
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