spacecoast
New member
It's a little hard to see, but here's a pic of my son with his ACOG-equipped M4 and his preferred weapon... the M240H. Taken a couple of weeks ago in Afghanistan.
ACOG at USMC recruit training/knitial qaulification?
- Thread starter MoBart
- Start date
I have a similiar photo of my son carrying an M4 (I think they had to carry them everywhere), only his M240 was mounted on the loader's hatch on a tank. Since he was a tanker, they originally all had pistols but they turned them in sometime during their deployment. I guess they figured they were useless or something.
You may also recall the army's designated marksman program, which included liberal distribution of such goodies as .50 caliber rifles. Even tank units received them but again, they apparently thought they were useless in their role and I can understand why. The army definately has no weapon shortages. Some units even deployed with weapons that were never taken out of the shipping containers.
You may also recall the army's designated marksman program, which included liberal distribution of such goodies as .50 caliber rifles. Even tank units received them but again, they apparently thought they were useless in their role and I can understand why. The army definately has no weapon shortages. Some units even deployed with weapons that were never taken out of the shipping containers.
SPEMack618
New member
yeah, the designated marksman program was great if you unit T&OE called for it.
Being a Cav Unit, who were expected to stem the red hoarde at the Fulda Gao with a barrage of TOW missiles, we were, at the individual platoon level, were not deemed worthy of such goodies.
However, our Headquarters Troop was liberally so equipped with M-16A4s with nice optics and M-14s with nice optics.
Thankfully our Troop Commander understood the mission and allowed for them to be issued out to the Platoons, but only on a one per basis.
A Squad Designated Marksman would have been nice.
Being a Cav Unit, who were expected to stem the red hoarde at the Fulda Gao with a barrage of TOW missiles, we were, at the individual platoon level, were not deemed worthy of such goodies.
However, our Headquarters Troop was liberally so equipped with M-16A4s with nice optics and M-14s with nice optics.
Thankfully our Troop Commander understood the mission and allowed for them to be issued out to the Platoons, but only on a one per basis.
A Squad Designated Marksman would have been nice.
Madcap_Magician
New member
I haven't seen an Army M4 or M16 in the last seven years that didn't have an ACOG or CCO on it, but I believe basic training BRM qualification is still done first with iron sights, at least it was for me.
I do like the ideas of basic soldier skills being required for promotion .... when I was in , the most improtant requirements for lower enlistment promotions was "what race/ethnic group are you" ....there was an EEO quota to fill...... funny how that only worked one way,though .... 40+ guys in the platoon and I was one of four that could not be counted in one "minority" or another......
I left in 2010, though only while I finish my degree. I know that when I got out recruits were still being trained on iron sights. The last few times that I qualified though we had the option of using either acogs or iron sights. Allot of us, myself included, still preferred iron sights for qualification. My personal feeling has always been that the best configuration is the most basic. Others disagree, and that's fine, but I certainly think that starting new soldiers or Marines at the basic level and building from there is best. My unit had enough range time to stay in practice, but we were infantry so of course we had a higher budget for such things. In do wish though that the regulations regarding range time weren't so stifling. The area behind my barracks had a small range set up that we used a couple times as a unit, but I always wanted to be able to pull some rifles out and get some range time. There is no reason why a couple authorized NCOs can't bring their guys shooting on a slow day to brush up on skills. Many of us would have been happy to throw some of our own money in the pot for ammo too. That would be a great way to improve skills at the small unit level.
As to it not being relevant to practice at small arms when you do something completely different, that's bull. Every man should be competent at his personal weapon, and carry it in all places. There is the occasional incident of "allied" forces attacking our people on these large bases, and I hear from good friends at those bases that half of our people don't bother carrying ammo because they think nothing will happen. That's called complacency. A long time ago, military men were expected to be armed and ready at all times, even liberty. Hilariously, some folks still think that's the case. I heard one of the liberal pundits say in response to the NRA suggestions that fort hood was a "whole base full of good guys with guns, and it didn't make any difference". The fact is almost none of them were armed. That's a Damn problem.
Sorry, I was in a very long line...
As to it not being relevant to practice at small arms when you do something completely different, that's bull. Every man should be competent at his personal weapon, and carry it in all places. There is the occasional incident of "allied" forces attacking our people on these large bases, and I hear from good friends at those bases that half of our people don't bother carrying ammo because they think nothing will happen. That's called complacency. A long time ago, military men were expected to be armed and ready at all times, even liberty. Hilariously, some folks still think that's the case. I heard one of the liberal pundits say in response to the NRA suggestions that fort hood was a "whole base full of good guys with guns, and it didn't make any difference". The fact is almost none of them were armed. That's a Damn problem.
Sorry, I was in a very long line...
It is a sad fact that the largest and most numerous Gun Free Zones in the United States are by and large Military Installations. When I was at Ft. Sill, there was a requirement to keep POW's (that's Privately Owned Weapons- ironic, is it not?) in the Battery Arms room, and sign them out when you wanted to use them...
#1, to the OP, I sincerely hope that the USMC is still qualifying with iron sights. I know qualifying with optics when I left ('07) wasn't even an option. Not even remotely discussed as an option to my knowledge.
While the Marine Corps doesn't require it, promotion to E-4 and E-5 requires you to meet a minimum "cut-in" score. You get points for time in service, time in grade, PFT scores, and rifle qualification scores (along with several other things). So, while basic Marine skills aren't "required" (you can get enough points for time in grade to overcome deficiencies), they are conducive to you making rank in any decent amount of time. The Marine Corps is truly a unique place. I've seen Lcpls (E-3s) tell E-6s of various other MOS's and services what to do. Not in a bossy way, more like a "listen to me and I'll keep your butt alive" way. I've also seen Lcpl squad leaders with a Cpl team leader... rare but it happens.
While the Marine Corps doesn't require it, promotion to E-4 and E-5 requires you to meet a minimum "cut-in" score. You get points for time in service, time in grade, PFT scores, and rifle qualification scores (along with several other things). So, while basic Marine skills aren't "required" (you can get enough points for time in grade to overcome deficiencies), they are conducive to you making rank in any decent amount of time. The Marine Corps is truly a unique place. I've seen Lcpls (E-3s) tell E-6s of various other MOS's and services what to do. Not in a bossy way, more like a "listen to me and I'll keep your butt alive" way. I've also seen Lcpl squad leaders with a Cpl team leader... rare but it happens.
REMshooter03xx
Inactive
USMC Grunt
I've done 2 deployments to Afghanistan and almost everyone has RCOs or ACOGS besides DM's and SNIPER's who had either SCHMIDT AND BENDER or Leupold scopes. when I came in 08 we shot with iron sights at boot camp but currently all new officers use RCOs on the range. O and some POGS don't use RCOs most likely because they never leave the safety of their big base with coffee shops and chow halls.
I've done 2 deployments to Afghanistan and almost everyone has RCOs or ACOGS besides DM's and SNIPER's who had either SCHMIDT AND BENDER or Leupold scopes. when I came in 08 we shot with iron sights at boot camp but currently all new officers use RCOs on the range. O and some POGS don't use RCOs most likely because they never leave the safety of their big base with coffee shops and chow halls.
REMshooter03xx
Inactive
@ 5whiskey I was a Lcpl. Squad leader with a Sgt. As one of my team leaders. It happens more than you think. Every one of the squad leaders in my company were Lcpls except for 1 Sgt and 2 Cpls.
@REMshooter...
Oh trust me, I know it happens. I was around the Corps long enough to notice that many units did things different than other units. My battalion preferred to send Sgts who had just simply stuck around long enough to pick up but weren't fit to lead to an S-shop and were usually made in charge of laundry or something. They usually got kicked out of rifle units quick, and if they were so fit for duty that many Lance's were trusted above them then the Co 1stSgt would find a way to bust them down or get them gone. I've seen it go differently in other units. I've also been a Lance and tell E-6s what they would and would not do in theater. Officers as well. Of course, they were specialists in their area... but were on patrol with me in my playground/area of specialty. That doesn't work so well when your a young Sgt and you tell your CO what to do on patrol. I was right in that one instant, but he still didn't appreciate it.
Oh trust me, I know it happens. I was around the Corps long enough to notice that many units did things different than other units. My battalion preferred to send Sgts who had just simply stuck around long enough to pick up but weren't fit to lead to an S-shop and were usually made in charge of laundry or something. They usually got kicked out of rifle units quick, and if they were so fit for duty that many Lance's were trusted above them then the Co 1stSgt would find a way to bust them down or get them gone. I've seen it go differently in other units. I've also been a Lance and tell E-6s what they would and would not do in theater. Officers as well. Of course, they were specialists in their area... but were on patrol with me in my playground/area of specialty. That doesn't work so well when your a young Sgt and you tell your CO what to do on patrol. I was right in that one instant, but he still didn't appreciate it.
Tucker 1371
New member
Getting back to the OP,
We're getting some boots fresh out of engineer school at my unit and the more recent ones are saying that they did in fact use RCO's (ACOGs) at the rifle range on Parris Island. I went from February to May of 2010 and I used irons. Shot expert on the KD range but had 6 saved rounds on Table 2 (combat shooting) range that dropped me down to sharpshooter
When I quald with my unit for te first time it was with an ACOG and I actually shot one shot worse on the 500 but did 12 points better on table 2 and got expert.
We're getting some boots fresh out of engineer school at my unit and the more recent ones are saying that they did in fact use RCO's (ACOGs) at the rifle range on Parris Island. I went from February to May of 2010 and I used irons. Shot expert on the KD range but had 6 saved rounds on Table 2 (combat shooting) range that dropped me down to sharpshooter
When I quald with my unit for te first time it was with an ACOG and I actually shot one shot worse on the 500 but did 12 points better on table 2 and got expert.