Accuracy problems with DAO pistols

VictorLouis: I have tried those other auto pistols and personally I still prefer the 1911/Glock/revolver to any of the others. When my agency changed over to Glocks, from what was mostly revolvers, our numbers went up on our qualification scores. I agree that the Glock is simple and easy to shoot just like a revolver. Just point and shoot, no external safetys to forget to take off. The officers that had Smith $ Clintons, shot better with their new Glocks. Especially weak handed from 25 yards, which was tough with a double action semiauto crunch en ticker on that first double action shot.
...7th

[This message has been edited by 7th Fleet (edited March 26, 2000).]
 
Fleet, I read my second reply, and I could see where I might have been a bit unclear. Specifically, have you tried those brands in DAO? The Beretta, in particular, has a great trigger pull.
Slab and Fleet, I appreciate your preferences, which you say includes revolvers. They're generally understood to be in .38/.357 format for LE and CCW. How can you discount a design with the EXACT same pull as a revolver, yet it fires larger and (arguably) more effective cartirdges? And "tells" you when it's empty, and reloads in a blink?
You like the Kahr, yet dismiss it's larger bretheren?
Keith, I do appreciate what your saying. I just don't feel that it's applicable in most circumstances. We know that the vast majority of incidents are up close, and personal. IMO,the time from my brain's "shoot" command, to discharge could be measured in nanoseconds. I don't think it makes any real-world measurable difference what trigger pull you have to deal with. Why didn't McGivern, and now Miculek, use 1911's? Because they could/can shoot faster than the gun can cycle!
I'm NOT saying that they're for everyone, just appreciate DAO's for what they offer. BTW, I do consider myself well-trained. In fact, I was an instructor for the agency that I used to work for. I just happen to prefer single action, or DAO, to DA/SA formats. :)
 
Oleg: I am in the same boat as a couple others here, but I also picked the P-11 for the safety of the long, hard trigger pull. It makes me feel more comfortable when I carry, 'cause I always carry one in the pipe.
I have also never measured my groups, and don't feel a need to, I am confident that the groups I do fire at the usual combat distances are plenty tight. BTW I use
CorBon 115 +P as a carry round. Never had a problem with these rounds. I also picked these guns because I am a fairly small
(5'4"140)and they fit me well and conceal wonderfully.
FWIW:I also have a P-32 and I feel the KelTec products I own have been really great values.

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Knock twice. Rap with your cane. Feels nice. You're out of the rain. We got your skinny girls. Here at the Western World
from Steely Dan's "Western World"
 
>>>>Why didn't McGivern, and now Miculek, use 1911's? Because they could/can shoot faster than the gun can cycle!<<<<<

Victor, I considered bringing that up myself but figured why go off an that tangent?
None of us are McGiverns and even if we are, we are discussing self-loaders which have triggers that do not approach the smoothness of a good revolver like those gentlemen use(d).
I agree that a SA or a DAO are both superior to the DA/SA trigger.
Between the SA and DAO, I think the SA wins. You can say that in "most" situations, it won't make a difference - the guy is in your face and accuracy or time isn't really a consideration. Thats true.
Maybe your situation won't be like "most" situations. Maybe the guy is holding your child in front of him and you can only see part of his head. Maybe he's in your kitchen squatting behind a counter leveling a shotgun at you...
Take any advantage you can get with a handgun - its a marginable enough weapon as it is.




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
DAO pistols were developed at the behest of law enforcement trainers. Recall that back in the '70s and early '80s, most law enforcement agencies equipped their officers with the revolver. Officers were taught to shoot DA only since cocking the trigger takes more time (which could get the officer killed) and could lead to unintentional discharges. After initial training at the academy, most COF (Course of Fire) used by agencies had nothing but DA shooting. This was regardless of the distance (2 feet to 25 yards and sometimes up to 50, depending upon the agency).

Well, along comes the DA/SA pistol. The DA/SA pistol works perfectly fine. However, officers could not adapt to the dual types of triggers on the DA/SA and were losing that first shot. While the shooting scores did climb, in some instances they dropped with the adoption of the DA/SA pistol. Rangemasters/firearms instructors identified the problem with the trigger and asked for development of the DAO trigger. They reasoned that officers long accustomed to DA only of their revolvers could adapt easier to the DAO pistol. Officers could be trained in DA/SA, but it required more time, effort, ammunition than budgets would permit and going to DAO merely simplified matters.

Does DAO have any application in non LE shooting? Civilian shooters who are truly dedicated won't have any trouble with DA/SA because unlike many LEOs, they will take the time to master the dual triggers. DAO can work for non-LE, but here it's a matter of personal choice and not shortage of training funds, time, or ammunition.

DAOs can shoot great. Having carried a DA revolver for years, I have no trouble with them. But it's a matter of how much time and effort you put into it.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Keith, glad to see that we concur on something: A single type of trigger action is preferable to DA/SA. Yes, we are not shooters of their stature. But they're proof that a long smooth rolling trigger is no hindrance to accuracy. I think you've accepted my premise.

Now, to your "what ifs?". I would be quite hesitant to shoot at the small part of the BG's exposed head for fear of hitting my child. I'd hammer his pelvis a few times to collapse his foundation and alter his determination. :) The BG with a SG will quite likely hit me before I could reach cover. To try to counter with a pistol at room distance would certainly be fatal. If we all CCW'ed for the worst-case scenario, we'd all have trench coats with MP-5's or SG's.

Gary, thanks for your well-reasoned input. Miami's police union seized on the Glock to answer a challenge from their Chief. He apparently didn't realize it fit his mandate of a DAO, hi-cap 9mm. He extracted his political foot from hi mouth and signed off on the pistol.
 
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