Accuracy of Unintended Consequences

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brianidaho

New member
I'm currently reading Unintended Consequences, and have to admit, its a great book. I'm hooked, staying up way to late reading every night. Anyway, can anyone comment on the accuracy of some of the accounts that John Ross relates:

1)Waco-did the feds fire first, and were most of the LEO wounds from rounds fired by other LEO's. Needless to say no media accounts showing the agent on the roof being shot mentioned it was by other federal agents.

2)The shooting of the Weavers and Kevin Harris-is it true that the shotgun in question was of legal barrel length, but too short an overall length due to a short stock?

3) The Lawmaster raid

4) The guy with the percussion handgun shot to death by federal agents-don't recall his name.

Any good links to independant verification are appreciated.

Thanks.
Brian

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I swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine-Ayn Rand
 
Re the questions you asked, the following is my understanding, based on reading various sources:

Your question #1. ATF personnel fired first.
Your question #2. Weaver sold, to an undercover agent, a "sawed-off shotgun". Supposedly, he was conned into so doing by said undercover type.
Your question #3. The raid on Mr. Lawmasters residence found nothing illegal", but did make one hell of a mess.
Your question #4. Sounds like you are talking about the shooting of Kenyon Ballew, of Silver Spring Md. in 1971 or '72. Ballew was NOT killed, though he did end up totally disabled. I believe that he might still be alive, but not sure of this.

From where I sit, regarding items 1 and 2, the government side of the issue has virtually zero credibility. They have been caught in to many lies. The Lawmaster raid seemed like one of BATF's "publicity stunts" gone "astray". The Ballew shooting was, and remains purely a case of CRIMINAL BUNGLING, for which the so-called law enforcement people involved should have been, at the very least, horse whipped, if not hung.

[This message has been edited by alan (edited October 31, 2000).]
 
On Waco, we might never know. Since evidence was "lost," and we cannot trust those who might go to prison if their story's don't sound right, we must speculate. My speculation, along with the head counsel for the Davidians says that ATF agents below started a shooting spree inside, and shot some guys upstairs which would be consistent with their wounds. The guys on the roof were pretty obviously shot by their own men who were inside the room that the shots came from. The Davidians proably did not fire first. If they indeed were suicidal, than in all probability, they would have shot up the cattle car carrying the agents prior to a single agent getting off alive. They knew the ATF was coming- why would you let those you're about to kill get a better opportunity. According to the ATF, the BD's had a M2 Machinegun, so they could have wiped out the entire load in less than a few seconds.

I honestly don't know about the Weavers. I do know that the Federal Government paid R. Weaver 3.1 million dollars, and agreed that they wouldn't have to admit culpability in the deaths of his son, and his wife. I only hope Kevin Harris gets some justice. There are numerous laws broken in both cases that we know for sure.

Ross, did plenty of research into his book. My wife's friend where she works is named Topperwien (SP?) so I had her ask if she was related to the famous demo shooter. She is. She is his great, great granddaughter. Ross hit the nail on the head with his bio. I verified it through the guy's own relatives. Now that you have your copy of UC, make sure to loan it out to others. My copy is less than a year old, yet I've loaned it out to so many folks, that the thing is falling apart. I may donate it to the library, and buy another copy for myself.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kjm:

I honestly don't know about the Weavers. I do know that the Federal Government paid R. Weaver 3.1 million dollars, and agreed that they wouldn't have to admit culpability in the deaths of his son, and his wife. I only hope Kevin Harris gets some justice. There are numerous laws broken in both cases that we know for sure.
[/quote]

The government recently settled with Kevin Harris. Three or four hundred thousand sounds like the amount.
 
"My" copy is from the local library. I'll be buying a copy or 2 just to loan out. This is the best summary of the excesses of government agencies I have read. Should be reading now rather than on here!

BTW, the Bonner (or Boundry??, I forget which) county prosecutor is going after Lon Horuchi (sp) on manslaughter charges. Was thrown out by 1 federal court, I believe she's taking it to a higher one.

It's amazing to me just how little the public is informed about what really has happened in these cases.

Bri
 
No need for doubt about who fired first at Waco; At least one of the agents got interviewed by the press before they were isolated and fed the government's story. He said they shot first. At the Davidians' dogs. Seems to be a standard part of their training, actually, to prevent any dogs from being sicced on them. Speculation is that the Davidians thought THEY were being fired on, and "returned" fire.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett Bellmore:
No need for doubt about who fired first at Waco; At least one of the agents got interviewed by the press before they were isolated and fed the government's story. He said they shot first. At the Davidians' dogs. Seems to be a standard part of their training, actually, to prevent any dogs from being sicced on them. Speculation is that the Davidians thought THEY were being fired on, and "returned" fire.

[/quote]

This is quite likely correct.
And since the "warrant" hadn't been served?? And a police agent fires upon you, or your own (dogs included), does that not constitute an act of severe aggression.

Another question of ownership, and liability.
If your dog gets out of say, your house, or back-yard, or kennel, and bites someone, are you liable account of ownership of same animal?
If you are legally responsible then, why is that same level of accountability and relationship not there when a police type(ATF) destroys your animal in an action such as the above mentioned?
If the animal is controlled (chained or contained) in some fashion. Then it would be reasonable to state that the animals are of no threat to a trespasser, except to betray their presence.

As for the book, a good read. I think that it might have the potential to open some eyes somewhat. But realistically, too many like to read, and dream a bit, but that's it.

I do, however, see where there might be a day when some of the activities mentioned in the book might occur.

Anybody think that the ATF, or certain small groups within it, wouldn't try to pull off something like the illegal plant of illegal materials, just to create a justifiable excuse for their own political ambitions? Wag the dog anyone??

I agree with alan, in that the responsible, rather irresponsible parties should be made an example of, each and every time, there is a group-grpoe like Ruby Ridge, or Waco, etc...

Certain parties in our country are being made example of, I think it's high time examples were made on the other side. If for no other reason than to try to gain public confidence again.
 
Ross has a few factoids worthy of mention. In the book, he calls the 1911 Sullivan law the 1913 Sullivan law. He also changes the name of an Ohio Senator who appeared to be a characature of Metzembaum.

My recollection of the Weaver shotgun was that it was cut just 1/4 inch shorter than legal limits after the BATF informant (working of a charge of his own) begged Randy for months to cut down the barrel. He offered him $200.

The informant had hours of tape with Weaver refusing to do it despite the fact that Weaver was low on money and hunting to eat. Strangely, there was no tape when the gun was cut down, though Weaver admits to doing, for the most part.

Go to www.amazon.com and get the book "Ambush at Waco" (Randy Weaver e-mailed me and said that was the best outside source material). Weaver and his daughters also wrote a book of their own which is quite worthy of a read. Might also be at amazon or on the weaver's own web page.

For Waco, I suggest Amazon for the documentaries "Waco:The Rules of Engagement" and "Waco: New Revelations." In book form go to "No More Wacos" by Kopel(?). In that book you will learn just how badly the warrant was fudged. Can anyone tell me the difference between and "EZ Kit" and an "E2 Kit" for an AR-15?

Rick

[This message has been edited by RickD (edited October 31, 2000).]
 
I saw Weaver when I was at Knob Creek this year... While I do not agree with some of his politics/racial views, it was spooky to hear him describing what happened to him, and I think that he got a seriously raw deal.

As for Waco, I'm really surprised that we never saw footage of the bullet riddled vehicles that the ATF folks arrived in - I mean, if the BD folks were shooting, I'm sure the vehicles would have taken rounds. That would be very photogenic too, right? Made for publicity. Why haven't we seen it?
 
Oh, yeah, charging across many yards of flat terrain, no cover, no element of suprise, against a foe with cover and supposedly one or more .50 cal machineguns. I knew the government's story was bs just from the fact that any of the BATF agents made it out alive!

RickD, we can call the 1911/1913 bit a mistake or a typo. Changing the name of a living Senator who's portrayed poorly? That's just libel insurance.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
The changed dates and names happened almost randomly. I don't know if he did it as artistic license or what.

Recall the anti-gun Senator who was "found" gagged and sodomized and ODed on narcotics? For some reason I recall that they used the name of Schumer on that one. It has been about four years since I read the book.

Rick
 
James Pate's articles in Soldier of Fortune magazine have been among the most informative of all writings about Waco, Ruby Ridge and such events as the Lawmaster case.

ATF "raided" Lawmaster's home based on a tip from his hostile ex-wife. No independent verification. Broke down the door (he wasn't home), damaged furniture, cut open his gunsafe--and found a legal AR-15. When they left, the front door was lying on the ground and the safe was open. Also, they were generally rude and hostile toward the neighbors...

An ATF person I know agreed that the "raid" on Waco was purely for PR purposes, what with the budget hearings coming up in two weeks. They knew full well that there was no need for the raid, that they could have merely had the McClennan County sheriff call Koresh and have him come on down to the SO--as had been done before.

FWIW, Art
 
OK, I've heard bits and pieces of these instances before, but never all laid out like this. Where is a good source of info on line, or in a book, that "summarizes" some of the attrocities of the feds, BATF tax agents/secret police in particular?

A better question is how do we start getting word out to the general public? I'm toying with a weekly letter to the editor of my local paper with maybe an excerpt (sp) a week... I just got my notice today that my CCW is approved and that I can pick it up :) :).. Better pick it up prior to trying to start a fire.

What's really baffling is that the so-called "liberal" organizations should be all over this. Where is the ACLU when civil liberties are really being trampled on. BTW, has anyone approached this group of loose cannons (perhaps squirtguns would be a better term) concerning RKBA?

I didn't think I'd ever say this about any novel but "Unintended Consequences" does rival "Atlas Shrugged" in it's importance.

Bri

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I swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine-Ayn Rand

[This message has been edited by brianidaho (edited November 01, 2000).]
 
I don't think the names in UC are random by any stretch:

"Carl Schaumberg", the anti-gun congressman from NY = Charles Schumer

"Arnold Katzenbaum", the anti-gun senator from Ohio = Howard Metzenbaum

"Ken Flanagan", the anti-gun governor of Missouri = Mel Carnahan

And finally, the unnamed woman with "thick glasses" = Janet Reno, I'm pretty sure.
 
The unnamed woman with "thick glasses" puzzled me for a long time. I finally came to the same conclusion you did; however, I still can't figure out why she was living in a double-wide.

And finally, the unnamed woman with "thick glasses" = Janet Reno, I'm pretty sure.[/B][/QUOTE]



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mcneill
 
Bri - You might try "Guns, Crime, and Freedom" by Wayne LaPierre. He has a chapter in the book on "BATF Abuses" which gives a good summary of the Weaver case and Waco.

Originally posted by brianidaho:
OK, I've heard bits and pieces of these instances before, but never all laid out like this. Where is a good source of info on line, or in a book, that "summarizes" some of the attrocities of the feds, BATF tax agents/secret police in particular?



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mcneill
Click to expand...
 
As many of the older members know, I know John Ross and have talked at great lengths with him about UC.. it is accurate as he could make it. He is a great guy and his book, IMHO, is one of the "must reads."

But, on the issue of Randy Weaver, I have personally heard him tell the truth about the rifle (SOF conv 1998), I quote as accurately as I remember:
"I cut the barrel down as far as I could, and I did a damn good job of it."

That statement was made in response to a question very from the audience at a talk he was giving. The question was along the lines of "I heard that the shotgun barrel was less than 1/4" too short, is that true?"

Weaver position on the shotgun is clear: It was illegal, he was dumb to do it and dumber to give do it for someone else. He says that the lesson learned is that if a friend asks you for two years to do something that is illegal and that he could simply do himself, he is probably not really your friend.

Enjoy the book.

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-Essayons
 
Unintended Consequences strikes me as one of those books that improves with re-reading.

I used to do some long range rifle shooting, 600 and 1000 yards, and the little treatises on the subject, "Uncle Max in The Belltower" for instance, are quite interesting, though I never got into the mathematics of it very deeply. I used the "hunt and peck" system. Had someone with a good spotting scope looking over the axis of my rifle barrel, and then I remembered the "big bore score book", windage diagrams and information on elevation changes for various distances. The rest was based on the all purpose SWAG (scientific, wild ass guess)

In any event, Mr. Ross writes an interesting, though longish story.
 
IMHO the glaring inaccuracy of UC is in the probable reaction of the POTUS and fedgov to having 100s of their finest JBTs picked off. I think they in reality would go whole hog with secret "emergency executive orders" to arrest thousands of "known troublemakers and constitution fanatics". A draconian iron fist would come down to smite the "terrorists" and their probable allies, and we would descend into all out civil war on the lines of Spain in the 30s, Argentina in the 70s, or Ireland from 1969 on.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Travis McGee:
IMHO the glaring inaccuracy of UC is in the probable reaction of the POTUS and fedgov to having 100s of their finest JBTs picked off. I think they in reality would go whole hog with secret "emergency executive orders" to arrest thousands of "known troublemakers and constitution fanatics". A draconian iron fist would come down to smite the "terrorists" and their probable allies, and we would descend into all out civil war on the lines of Spain in the 30s, Argentina in the 70s, or Ireland from 1969 on.

[/quote]

I second that. And it would not be a pretty sight. Not to mention the econimic chaos and destabiliation of our country as a super power. But I would trade all of the above for my freedom.

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