Acceptable Accuracy for White Tail?

All great advise here!
After teaching the basics and a lot of fun shooting from the bench, you may want to try something a bit different.

My dad had quit hunting by the time I was wanting to get into it, I was a late one, last of the bunch. He was a WWII vet.

After I had the basics of shooting down, he had me do a few drills at the range and in the woods behind our house over a summer.

One was to get me to go out back where we shot and I only got one bullet, one shot at the target, standing, no rest, 30-30, 4x scope at 50 yards. Then it was over for the afternoon.
We did this several times a week, sometimes only once a week and often without warning. He would say "get your gun, lets take a shot."
After a few weeks the target was moved further out, eventualy to 100 yards, soetimes I didn't know the exact range.

When we went to the range, he got me to do jumping jacks until my heart rate was up, pick up my rifle, load one bullet, chamber the round, and take a shot at the 100 yd target, standing with no rest. He got me to move slow but steady, but to fire the second I had aquiered the target. Once the rifle was shoulderd he wanted me to fire within 2 seconds. Sometimes he had me load and fire up to 5 rounds at a time. He said we were after "minute of deer" accuracy. It was a Marlin 336, 30-30.

This was great fun and a great time together. After the "drills" at the range we settled in to shooting off the bench, but never with a sand bag rest.

This taught me to shoot while excited and out of breath and the "one shot drill" taught me to shoot "cold" after hours in the stand.

Shooting standing, without a rest taught me to let the sights decend on the target as I exhaled, and gently control my trigger pull.

More important, it was just good firearm training and a Great time together
He always kept it fun, no pressure or critisizm, we laughed a lot.
 
Depends on where and how you hunt. I learned to hunt deer in WV. Back when I started we hunted from the ground for the most part. Shots were well within 100 yds(100 yds would be a long shot in the hard woods). On the ground the action is fast and there is no rest as in a some tree stands or other shooting boxes. To me a 100 yd shot with a rest shooting a deer in a wide open field is easier than some 50 yard shots through the hardwoods while stalking(yes, we did that and still do).

When I was learning they tested you by putting a pie plate size target out about 50 yards or so(usually a paper plate with a hand drawn bulls eye). Hit that in the center or right around and it was called good. But, our shots were not real long for the most part.

Hunting in open fields you are going to get longer shots.
 
I have never taken a shot at a deer without some type of rest. My hand on a tree with the rifle resting on my thumb or just taking a knee. I wont take the shot if I'm not sure of a quick, clean kill. I've let more of them walk than most folks would, but that's just me.
 
Sarge,

Many thanks for posting that picture.

I was about to post a bit of a lecture about where to aim, but your picture was far better than my several dozen words could have been!

Another way of putting it: Putting the bullet within 3 inches of the center of the deer virtually guarantees that the deer will escape to die a lingering death.

Putting the bullet within 5 inches of the center of the circle Sarge presented virtually guarantees the deer won't go far from where it was standing when hit.
 
Keep in mind that shooting charcoal and plates at the range isn't the same as a boy shooting at a live deer. His heart rate will be up and he will be shaking. Make sure he is dead on at the range, because his aim on a live animal may be different.
 
MOA

We weren't allowed to hunt until we could get three shots in an inch at the expected range we expected to hunt at with the gun. For rabbits 1" at about 25 yards, deer 1" at 100 yards. That takes a lot of practice and you get comfortable with the guns. When you get to the field you are not worried about the mechanics of shooting. That helps, but time in the field is very important too. That is something I want to get a lot more of this year with my son. You don't need the expensive rifle and scope to get that kind of accuracy either. I have had the same 30 year old hand-me down 30-06 and still expect the 1" groups every time. I don't know if some people think I am exaggerating, but I am sure there are lots more out there more than capable of that. My son can get the 1" at 25 yards with the 22, so we are good for rabbits. Not there yet with the .308.
 
I've taught several people how to shoot handguns and rifles, for both range and hunting situations. Every person has their own learning curve and maturation regarding both shooting and killing game.

Asking an inexperienced shooter to kill a deer or other animal with open sights often leads to failures. Under pressure, they tend to not be able to align both front and rear sights and the kill zone.

Teaching basic shooting mechanics is easier with scoped repeating rifles, off sandbag front rests, but it doesn't fully prepare a person to hold a rifle and shoot offhand at a deer. Shooting .22s that are light and short can be excellent offhand practice, as is pellet or BB shooting.

When shooting at targets or game, the easiest sights for a kid to use are red-dot sights. Eye relief and head position is not critical and there is only one point to align with the target/game kill zone.

The most important thing for them to concentrate on is looking at where they want to hit instead of looking at the dot or crosshair. Then, to smoothly press the trigger as the reticle crosses the center of the target, whether a bullseye, paper plate, or animal kill zone.

Next important thing to teach is the kill zones for various game animals/shooting angles.
 
Againstthewind said --My son can get the 1" at 25 yards with the 22, so we are good for rabbits. Not there yet with the .308
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One could argue that the .308 has a bit more oomph than a beginning shooter should have to accept.

That all changes when you use "reduced recoil" factory ammunition or roll your own. One can make a very pleasant deer load by running a 110 - 130 grain bullet fast enough that it is still going at least 2000 ft/sec at what seems to be the 200 yard upper limit you expect your son to shoot to in his first season or two.

For example, one can reasonably load the Speer 110 gr Hot-Cor down to about 2700 ft/sec and get better than 2,000 ft/sec at 200 yards. A 100 yard zero will have the bullet dropping a tad more than 2 inches at 200 yards. Best yet, the under 10 ft-lb recoil energy is about half of the energy one sees with 165 grain factory loads. Further, it is less than one sees with most deer loads for the .243 Winchester.

It should also be a good rabbit harvester, so he can get plenty of practice!
 
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I agree that groups will be considerably larger when shooting real animals but I disagree that shooting at "irrelevant" animals will help with deer hunting. I killed countless thousands of woodchucks and pigeons before I ever killed a deer. It didn't do a thing for the stress/nervous reaction the first time a deer showed up. Pounding heart, shaking hands, etc. Never had it with small animals, never stopped having it with deer.
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Right, and so for a lot of folks, that 9" paper plate accuracy becomes placemat accuracy when they get nervous, or larger.

Like with anything else, if you are shooting from a resting position to test accuracy for hunting and expect to perform like that, then you need to be hunting from a rested position as an inexperienced hunter. If you aren't going to be hunting from a rest, then don't test your accuracy from a rest. If you are hunting offhand, test accuracy offhand. If planning on sitting under a tree and waiting for deer to come by, then test accuracy from a seated position on the ground.
 
308

I agree with JASmith the .308 was a bit much. I was hoping that it would be ok because he will be legal for big game this year, but we are going to have to take it a little slower I think. The .308 was all I have right now but I will have to look into something like a .243 to start out with. October is a ways away still.

I also agree that shooting from the bench and sandbags is not the same as shooting in the field. Someone else said aim small, miss small and being able to hit a small target consistently at the range gives a lot of confidence in the shooters ability when it comes to the field. Those drills are also a good idea. That would be pretty fun too.

I don't think 5" or 6" is small enough. The very convenient picture shows an instant kill area about 6" diameter maybe. If you are only able to group your shots at 6" your aim in the field would have to be perfect to still be in the kill zone consistently. I am with the person who refuses to shoot at an animal offhand unless it is with a .22 or shotgun. Some people can do it, but I don't practice off-hand and I won't shoot offhand at a deer. I know there are a lot of more experienced hunters out there but I am pretty stuck on requiring better accuracy than a pie-plate for myself.
 
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Someone else said aim small, miss small and being able to hit a small target consistently at the range gives a lot of confidence in the shooters ability when it comes to the field. Those drills are also a good idea.
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How about, 'aim small, hit small'? Whether you miss small or large, a miss is a miss, LOL.
 
Here is a way of looking at a first rifle for medium game hunting:

Do you want that first rifle to have the potential to be used for all hunting except where the .22 rimfire makes sense?

or,

Are you thinking that this is the first of several rifles, each more or less specialized for type of game and hunting environment?

If the second, the .243 Winchester is an excellent start.

If the first, one needs to choose a rifle with load flexibility that allows the rifle to "grow" with your son's developing skills. In this picture, the .243 Winchester, while nominally a light recoil rifle, is stressed for the heaviest deer and should not be the first choice as an elk rifle. The .260 Remington is good for elk and when handloaded with 140 gr lead-free bullets, is on the edge of being useful for moose. Your son can readily use the .308 for moose when he goes with heavy premium bullets.

Handloading lets one tailor the recoil so that both the 260 and the 308 kick about as softly as the 243 while employing bullets suitable for deer.

If one is restricted to factory ammunition, the picture is pretty close to the same when using managed recoil ammuntion:

1) .243 Win 100 gr Core-Lokt 2960 ft/sec and 8.7 ft-lb recoil energy with 8lb rifle.

Larger calibers using Remington Managed Recoil ammunition:

2) .260 Rem 140 gr Core-Lock 2360 ft/sec and 8.5 ft-lb recoil. The 140 gr Core-Lokt is also good for Elk.

3) .308 Win 125 gr Core-Lokt 2660 ft/sec and 10.5 ft-lb recoil. The 125 gr is good for deer but not Elk. On the other hand factory ammunition with heavy premium bullets make the .308 Win suitable for moose.
 
Kids hunting Deer

Man oh man, you have gotten so much info here on this topic that I don't think I can give you anything new. However by all means take the kids hunting, be safe, teach them safety in the field and let them have fun. Heck, so what if they miss. Just show me someone who has never missed a shot and I will show you someone who doesn't hunt or he is a liar. Good hunting.
 
First rifle

JASmith,

I think that we are going to go with the first of a couple of different rifles for different purposes option. I grew up with the one rifle for everything option. A couple of things are different now, though. First I am a little tired of re-sighting in with different loads. I started out with a 30-06 when I was 13 ish and every year I would sight in with 150's for deer and then switch to 180's for elk and then go back to 150's for coyotes and had to re-sight in every time. I found some 165's that worked with that rifle pretty well, too. 150's are a little big for the puppies but its the only rifle I have had since I was 13. Second I am built a little bit differently than my son. Stout would be the polite way to describe my build, and he is on the slender side. By slender I mean he could hide behind a flag pole. By stout I mean I couldn't hide behind a refrigerator. I didn't have a problem with the 30-06, but things are different.

Thanks for the advise on the choices. I guess its time for shopping.
 
How about, 'aim small, hit small'? Whether you miss small or large, a miss is a miss, LOL.
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the only time I've heard "aim small, miss small" is in the film "the patriot". aside from being complete drivel with the intent of being braveheart with muskets, this statement does make sense to me.

muskets are pretty innaccurate especially smoothbore. giving someone with such a gun the advice of aim small miss small is that the smaller target you are focusing on the greater chance of hitting the entire enemy even if you miss the small area you are aiming at. the same can be said for deer. focusing on a tiny area instead of the entire kill zone means even if you miss that small region you still stand a good chance of hitting the killzone.

aim small hit small is not really advice at all, it's an unrealistic expectation and does nothing but hurt a young hunters confidence when they drop a deer with a lung shot and you were expecting them to put it straight through the heart.
 
Againstthewind,

I hear you! We sure want to hear how things go -- sounds like you are starting down a good path!

BTW Here is a discussion about choosing rifle cartridges with matched trajectories but with different hunting capabilities: Paired Rifles

Also, it looks like the adjustable length stock pioneered on AR15 style rifles is now becoming available for bolt action rifles too. This type of stock would allow the rifle to shrink and grow as needed for both growth and the differences in clothing between winter and summer.
 
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