coolridelude
New member
well that explains the vast knowledge you have given me.
thanks.
? about wild wild west revolver guns
- Thread starter coolridelude
- Start date
well that explains the vast knowledge you have given me.
thanks.
Darned if I know.
I don't let it sweat me all that much..
Now if y'all will excuse me I have to go jam some bullets into my clips
PS. They be acp not LC
Anyhow here's the word from one of the foremost people in the world on sixguns and their fodder - Paco Kelly:
Paco calls them (long) Colt, Long Colt, LC and Colt.
Umm, Bill - not quite. Matter of fact, the Walker with a full charge of 60 gr of powder under a .457 in. dia. 90 gr. round ball will chrono in the neighborhood of 1200 fps. (The topic was cover last year @ THR )
Here's some data fellow member mec posted over there:
"Since this string began, I've gotten hold of some Swiss fffg black powder. 60 grains of it puts a .454 ball out in the 1200 + fps range. Much better than goex or any reports I've heard about elephant or the other currently more or less available powders
Here's what that looks like:
Walker 60 Grains Swiss fffg 140 +or-1 grain ball
Velocity 1200 fps Energy 448 Foot pounds.
.357 Magnum 125 Grain JHP
Velocity 1450 Energy 584 foot pounds
.45 Colt 250 grain RNFP
Velocity 870 Energy 402 foot pounds
.45 Colt 250 Guessed-at but unknown black powder load** performance
Velocity 900 Energy 450 fps. "
**(comment mine - accepted black powder maximum in modern .45 Colt brass is around 35 to 38 grains. The old "balloon head" case could hold 40 grains.)
Hal again:
As an aside and an FYI -
The .44 Remington Magnum will push a 240 gr slug @ ~ 1500 fps give or take. Energy levels of most .44 Rem Mag loads are also typicaly 1/3 to 2 times more than what the Walker is capable of.
Last edited:
I seem to recall that a lot of cartridges at the end of the 19th century had a "long" version and a "short" version. The .32 S&W long is still around but the short one is probably history. I imagine, now with Cowboy Action Shooting, you can get all of these again. Elmer Keith liked to call the .45 S&W or .45 Short Colt a squib load.
Have you noticed the reluctance of some manufacturers to refer to the .40 S&W as such but instead call it the .40 auto?
Have you noticed the reluctance of some manufacturers to refer to the .40 S&W as such but instead call it the .40 auto?
Mike Irwin
Staff
The .32 S&W Long is a little different in that there was never a .32 S&W "short," at least so named by the company. It's been called that over the years, though.
I believe Winchester still loads the .32 S&W, but it's hard to find.
All of this angst and furor over the .45 Colt/Long Colt name brings up another important question...
What about those cartridges, originally developed and named by one company, that were co-opted by another company and renamed?
A few examples...
The .32-40 and .38-55 Winchester rounds. What? They weren't Winchester's? Nope, they were originally developed by Ballard for that company's target rifles.
The .32 Colt New Police. How about, in reality, the .32 Smith & Wesson Long.
The .38 Colt New/Super Police? Colt rounds, tried and true, right? Wrong. Colt found that the .38 Smith & Wesson round was kicking the .38 Short Colt's proverbial ass. Voila, Colt magically "developed" a new round to compete with the .38 S&W. Even worse, the British then IMPROPERLY named BOTH of these rounds when they came up with their .380-200! How dare they! I have the urge to write the Queen a strongly worded letter!
Then you have cartridges that were renamed not by someone else, but by the very companies that developed them!
The two best known examples? The .244 Remington and the .280 Remington. The .244 became the 6mm Remington, and the .280 for several years was marketed as the 7mm Express, BEFORE being renamed once again to the .280 Remington! What chuptzah!
And how about the .38 Special. Simple, right? NO! It's the .38 Smith & Wesson Special! GET IT RIGHT!
Cartridge names have always had a GREAT amount of flexibility, and more than just a few have had multiple names at different points (or hell, even at the same point!) in time.
Try not to get your knickers in too much of a wad...
I believe Winchester still loads the .32 S&W, but it's hard to find.
All of this angst and furor over the .45 Colt/Long Colt name brings up another important question...
What about those cartridges, originally developed and named by one company, that were co-opted by another company and renamed?
A few examples...
The .32-40 and .38-55 Winchester rounds. What? They weren't Winchester's? Nope, they were originally developed by Ballard for that company's target rifles.
The .32 Colt New Police. How about, in reality, the .32 Smith & Wesson Long.
The .38 Colt New/Super Police? Colt rounds, tried and true, right? Wrong. Colt found that the .38 Smith & Wesson round was kicking the .38 Short Colt's proverbial ass. Voila, Colt magically "developed" a new round to compete with the .38 S&W. Even worse, the British then IMPROPERLY named BOTH of these rounds when they came up with their .380-200! How dare they! I have the urge to write the Queen a strongly worded letter!
Then you have cartridges that were renamed not by someone else, but by the very companies that developed them!
The two best known examples? The .244 Remington and the .280 Remington. The .244 became the 6mm Remington, and the .280 for several years was marketed as the 7mm Express, BEFORE being renamed once again to the .280 Remington! What chuptzah!
And how about the .38 Special. Simple, right? NO! It's the .38 Smith & Wesson Special! GET IT RIGHT!
Cartridge names have always had a GREAT amount of flexibility, and more than just a few have had multiple names at different points (or hell, even at the same point!) in time.
Try not to get your knickers in too much of a wad...
These threads are the reason why I enjoy this forum so much. You all have so much knowledge about your given hobby/sport/avocation. I don't know of any group of people that, when called upon to do so, can come up with the wealth of knowledge that gun people can.
You all are PHD's on guns and ammo! I don't know enough yet to chime in again, (I all ready got my lunch handed to me!) but it sure is fun to read and learn.
You all are PHD's on guns and ammo! I don't know enough yet to chime in again, (I all ready got my lunch handed to me!) but it sure is fun to read and learn.
Long Colt
There is at least one article a year in a magazine over whether the 45 Colt or Long Colt is proper or historical. The last article I saw explained that there were vintage ammo boxes that said .45 long colt on them and the thinking was that the term may have originated with the army to differentiate them from the .45 Schofield loads which were also issued. It was also pointed out there were a lot of Schofield loads shot in Colts because at one point the army issued the shorter round to avoid having to issie 2 different loads since they had men in the field shooting both guns. DOes that make it official as a designation? What is clear is that .45 Long colt has been commonly if not officially used since before the turn of the century. I don't really mind the designation being used anymore than I mind people dropping .32 H&R magnum to .32 magnum. I always thought they should give credit to H&R for the one good cartridge they designed themselves too. I suppose the .45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt argument will go on as long as the argument as whats the best deer gun caliber?
There is at least one article a year in a magazine over whether the 45 Colt or Long Colt is proper or historical. The last article I saw explained that there were vintage ammo boxes that said .45 long colt on them and the thinking was that the term may have originated with the army to differentiate them from the .45 Schofield loads which were also issued. It was also pointed out there were a lot of Schofield loads shot in Colts because at one point the army issued the shorter round to avoid having to issie 2 different loads since they had men in the field shooting both guns. DOes that make it official as a designation? What is clear is that .45 Long colt has been commonly if not officially used since before the turn of the century. I don't really mind the designation being used anymore than I mind people dropping .32 H&R magnum to .32 magnum. I always thought they should give credit to H&R for the one good cartridge they designed themselves too. I suppose the .45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt argument will go on as long as the argument as whats the best deer gun caliber?
HammerBite
New member
Or .380 ACP/9mm kurz
Can anyone post a table of European vs. American caliber equivalents?
Mike Irwin
Staff
That would be a damned big table, Hammer...
I'll try to pull something together in the next day or two...
Tomorrow at the office should be a LOT more sedate.
I'll try to pull something together in the next day or two...
Tomorrow at the office should be a LOT more sedate.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I will be a Long Colt convert..."
That's really not necessary.
You can use EITHER name and be perfectly comfortable doing so because people will understand exactly what you're talking about. That's the beauty of what has transpired over the last 100 or so years.
That's really not necessary.
You can use EITHER name and be perfectly comfortable doing so because people will understand exactly what you're talking about. That's the beauty of what has transpired over the last 100 or so years.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Mike, you are too kind!"
You just haven't been around long enough...
You just haven't been around long enough...
jacobtowne
New member
"I believe Winchester still loads the .32 S&W, but it's hard to find. "
Cheaper than Dirt has several offerings in .32 S&W Long. Oddly, they no longer list the Sellier & Bellot, which was far less expensive than domestic brands. I've read that the round is popular in Europe for target shooting.
JT
Cheaper than Dirt has several offerings in .32 S&W Long. Oddly, they no longer list the Sellier & Bellot, which was far less expensive than domestic brands. I've read that the round is popular in Europe for target shooting.
JT
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jacob,
The .32 S&W and the .32 S&W Long are different cartridges.
The .32 Smith & Wesson cartridge, which is much shorter and about 20 years older than the .32 S&W Long, has been dying a slow, lingering death since S&W stopped making handguns for it in the runup to World War II. Other companies chambered it for some years after, but I think it was completely out of homes by the late 1960s.
The .32 Long is still chambered now and again, particularly in S&W and Ruger revolvers. I don't know of any specifically now being chambered, though.
Fiocchi (sp?) makes .32 S&W Long 98-gr. wadcutter ammo. I shoot it in my older Regulation Police and my newer Model 30 snubby. The only problem is that the powder stinks like crazy.
The .32 S&W and the .32 S&W Long are different cartridges.
The .32 Smith & Wesson cartridge, which is much shorter and about 20 years older than the .32 S&W Long, has been dying a slow, lingering death since S&W stopped making handguns for it in the runup to World War II. Other companies chambered it for some years after, but I think it was completely out of homes by the late 1960s.
The .32 Long is still chambered now and again, particularly in S&W and Ruger revolvers. I don't know of any specifically now being chambered, though.
Fiocchi (sp?) makes .32 S&W Long 98-gr. wadcutter ammo. I shoot it in my older Regulation Police and my newer Model 30 snubby. The only problem is that the powder stinks like crazy.
dakotashooter2
New member
Back to the original question... the west was pretty much a melting pot of guns including blackpowder revolvers and conversions. Basically whatever a person could find or afford. While the 45 colt may have been "desireable" it probably didn't outnumber other calibers out there. The movies would have one believe that everyone carried a revolver when the opposite is true. In the west a rifle or shotgun was far more valuable in terms of utility and most were luck to afford one gun.
I think S&W and perhaps Taurus are still chambering some guns in .32 H&R mag which will accept both the .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long cartridges. They're mostly six shot snubbies though. Ruger makes SP101s (and vaqueritos) in .32 H&R mag with long enough barrels to be ok target revolvers.
I have a SAA, Frontier Six Shooter actually, made in 1897. The serial number is in the neighborhood of 175,000. The population of the U.S. at that time was about 75,000,000. In the broad sense, the SAA was not very common. Of that population, how many were living in the "civilized" east, rather than "the west", which at that time included such states as Missouri, and Kansas, which are not thought of as "the west", today? I remember reading an article, not more than ten years ago, stating that the population "balance point", that is, the point on the map that would be the center of the population, had just moved to a point west of Pennsylvania - and this is at the end of the 20th Century. Imagine how few of those 75,000,000 Americans lived in the "wild west", and there may have been plenty of SAAs to go around.