About MIMs
- Thread starter Walter
- Start date
Hunter Customs
New member
The most common parts that are MIM are, grip safeties, thumb safeties, sears, hammers, hammer struts, plunger tubes, extractors, ejectors, barrel bushings, slide stops, sights, disconnectors, main spring housings, and mag catches.
Finding good replacement parts is not hard to do, there's several companies selling good top shelf parts.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Finding good replacement parts is not hard to do, there's several companies selling good top shelf parts.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Jim Watson
New member
Not all the listed parts are MIM in all guns. Mold marks are visible on most MIM parts.
Bear in mind that many of the internals are fitted parts and it is not just a matter of buying a new one of hopefully better material and reassembling the gun with it in place.
Bear in mind that many of the internals are fitted parts and it is not just a matter of buying a new one of hopefully better material and reassembling the gun with it in place.
I'll pull on my Flame Suit here, but I have done some looking into this although I can't say that I "researched" it.
For the most part, Colt uses the fewest number of MIM parts than anybody else. If fact, they did use a MIM extractor on their government models up to a few years ago but went to milled steel after having some complaints about failures.
It's probably fair to say that the major manufacurers of 1911s all use MIM parts but that they also take some care that they are only used on lower stress applications. It would be foolish of a mfgr. to use MIM parts that were known to fail and continue using them if they cause unreliability.
We can only hope.
I haven't been able to come across a definitive and comprehensive list of who uses MIM in what applications other than just general information.
You'ld almost have to contact each individual manufacturer and ask the specific question.
Carter
For the most part, Colt uses the fewest number of MIM parts than anybody else. If fact, they did use a MIM extractor on their government models up to a few years ago but went to milled steel after having some complaints about failures.
It's probably fair to say that the major manufacurers of 1911s all use MIM parts but that they also take some care that they are only used on lower stress applications. It would be foolish of a mfgr. to use MIM parts that were known to fail and continue using them if they cause unreliability.
We can only hope.
I haven't been able to come across a definitive and comprehensive list of who uses MIM in what applications other than just general information.
You'ld almost have to contact each individual manufacturer and ask the specific question.
Carter
Obiwan is correct. In the early days of MIM use in guns, many parts failed either because they were used inappropriately or because they were not made right. Making a spring (and an internal 1911 extractor is a spring) by MIM is simply dumb, and Colt of all people should have known better. But many other parts can be made by MIM with great savings and entire satisfaction.
Some people say that makers use MIM but don't reduce their prices. That is not the point. The point is how much the gun would cost if it were made of all forged, machined, and hand fitted parts; many of us talk about liking guns made "the old way", but I don't think most of us could afford them.
The idea of automatically replacing MIM parts without even firing the gun is absurd. One of the main drawbacks is that the buyer has no idea how any given part is made, and some manufacturers use clever wording. One common term, "all machined" means nothing except that the part is not MIM. It can be cast, machined from stock, forged, or made out of compressed beer cans; if it was drilled or run through a mill, it was "all machined." Nothing about the material, the type of steel, the hardness, etc. Just "machined."
Jim
Some people say that makers use MIM but don't reduce their prices. That is not the point. The point is how much the gun would cost if it were made of all forged, machined, and hand fitted parts; many of us talk about liking guns made "the old way", but I don't think most of us could afford them.
The idea of automatically replacing MIM parts without even firing the gun is absurd. One of the main drawbacks is that the buyer has no idea how any given part is made, and some manufacturers use clever wording. One common term, "all machined" means nothing except that the part is not MIM. It can be cast, machined from stock, forged, or made out of compressed beer cans; if it was drilled or run through a mill, it was "all machined." Nothing about the material, the type of steel, the hardness, etc. Just "machined."
Jim
Harry Bonar
New member
mim
Dear sir;
Don't like them - won't use them! Alot of sights, etc are made from 12L14 - good free machining steel.
Harry B.
Dear sir;
Don't like them - won't use them! Alot of sights, etc are made from 12L14 - good free machining steel.
Harry B.
Lycanthrope
New member
I had two series II plungers fail in my Kimber Eclipse. A softer metal that may have peened would be a better choice than one that broke cleanly and my have been brittle in the first place.
Jim Watson
New member
Yup.
Ersatz material for a superfluous part.
Attack of the mutant pistols.
Ick.
Ersatz material for a superfluous part.
Attack of the mutant pistols.
Ick.
Let me see if I fully understand. Any old piece of trash, made out of any old material, is OK as long as it wasn't made by MIM.
Forgive me for repeating myself, but MIM is a metal working technique, just like forging, machining, or casting, or stamping. Like those methods, the end product is no better than the material that went into the process. We forget that Rugers were once widely condemned for being cast, "just like those old Spanish pot metal revolvers." Stamped parts were universally bad mouthed; the German P.38 was no good, we were told, because it was "all stamped out" and the Ruger Standard model was described as cheap stamped junk.
So, make Harry happy. Throw away your Rugers. Also your Glocks. And S&W's. And Colts. And P.38's. (Please throw them all my way.)
No, MIM is not appropriate to all applications, but neither are other materials or techniques. Designers need to know the limitations of any material they use. Glock proved that polymer can be used for pistol frames, but he didn't make barrels or springs out of it.
Jim
Forgive me for repeating myself, but MIM is a metal working technique, just like forging, machining, or casting, or stamping. Like those methods, the end product is no better than the material that went into the process. We forget that Rugers were once widely condemned for being cast, "just like those old Spanish pot metal revolvers." Stamped parts were universally bad mouthed; the German P.38 was no good, we were told, because it was "all stamped out" and the Ruger Standard model was described as cheap stamped junk.
So, make Harry happy. Throw away your Rugers. Also your Glocks. And S&W's. And Colts. And P.38's. (Please throw them all my way.)
No, MIM is not appropriate to all applications, but neither are other materials or techniques. Designers need to know the limitations of any material they use. Glock proved that polymer can be used for pistol frames, but he didn't make barrels or springs out of it.
Jim
Harry Bonar
New member
mims
Dear Jim:
I understand - no, throw them my way!!!
Harry B.
Dear Jim:
I understand - no, throw them my way!!!
Harry B.
alexander hamilton
New member
heh heh, plastic barrels...
heh
heh
Heh, Heh. You may very well see plastic barrels within the next ten years if concerns about security can be met.
Winchester made shotgun barrels from fiberglas with a thin steel liner, and barrels are often made from light metal with a steel liner. I don't know if any barrels have been made of a material normally termed "plastic" but they have been made from ceramics, complete with rifling, and worked.
Jim
Winchester made shotgun barrels from fiberglas with a thin steel liner, and barrels are often made from light metal with a steel liner. I don't know if any barrels have been made of a material normally termed "plastic" but they have been made from ceramics, complete with rifling, and worked.
Jim
cntryboy1289
New member
Not to throw in and make anyone mad, but Winchester ain't making anymore of those barrels for a reason, Jim. Is it something we all like, of course not as well as technology isn't today what it was yesterday.
I wish I could afford to buy a gun that was built by hand all the time by a machinist that knew what he was doing and could hold tolerances very close. I think we all know those days are over with because it requires money that manufactureres don't want to spend amymore when they can mold them and throw them on without having anyone have to fit the parts any more. Is it better because of this, according to Harry and many others NO! What happens when you have to replace a part with a new part because a gunsmith can't work on the MIM parts, exactly, no more need for a man that knows how to make them work anymore when all he has to do is swap in a new one.
Are all MIM parts useless, of course not, some actually can and do work, but count me in on the side that doesn't like them and wish all things were like they used to make 'em back in the good ol' days when if it broken and there weren't any new parts handy, a man could weld it back together and case harden it and put it back to working for him.
I wish I could afford to buy a gun that was built by hand all the time by a machinist that knew what he was doing and could hold tolerances very close. I think we all know those days are over with because it requires money that manufactureres don't want to spend amymore when they can mold them and throw them on without having anyone have to fit the parts any more. Is it better because of this, according to Harry and many others NO! What happens when you have to replace a part with a new part because a gunsmith can't work on the MIM parts, exactly, no more need for a man that knows how to make them work anymore when all he has to do is swap in a new one.
Are all MIM parts useless, of course not, some actually can and do work, but count me in on the side that doesn't like them and wish all things were like they used to make 'em back in the good ol' days when if it broken and there weren't any new parts handy, a man could weld it back together and case harden it and put it back to working for him.
As far as I'm concerned, plastic barrels are only unavailable because of longevity and security reasons at this point ... PEEK (poly-ether-ether-ketone, IIRC) is a hi-temp polymer that, when glass or carbon filled has excellent strength at high temps and very low friction. I happens to be a "controlled substance" in south east asia for security reasons ... fear of gunrunners making undetectable firearms ... or so I was told by the supplier I was working with a few years ago.
As pricey as PEEK is for a plastic, PEEK barrels would be injection molded and would probably be quite reasonably priced and therefore viable if you were willing to replace them every so often.
Just a thought ...
Saands
As pricey as PEEK is for a plastic, PEEK barrels would be injection molded and would probably be quite reasonably priced and therefore viable if you were willing to replace them every so often.
Just a thought ...
Saands
Hi, Cntryboy,
Those fiberglas barrels mostly worked OK. The main reason they weren't liked was that they were TOO light and shotgunners couldn't get a decent follow through. And, of course, the gun wasn't really liked either and had quite a few problems.
There were a lot of silly stories about the fiberglas unwinding and so on, but those were just the type of nonsense stories we see all the time. We sold quite a few and had no comebacks or complaints about the way the barrel was made, though we had quite a few about the action.
Jim
Those fiberglas barrels mostly worked OK. The main reason they weren't liked was that they were TOO light and shotgunners couldn't get a decent follow through. And, of course, the gun wasn't really liked either and had quite a few problems.
There were a lot of silly stories about the fiberglas unwinding and so on, but those were just the type of nonsense stories we see all the time. We sold quite a few and had no comebacks or complaints about the way the barrel was made, though we had quite a few about the action.
Jim
GrantCunningham
New member
I have some experience with MIM parts in revolvers; allow me to add a "real world" perspective. I'm not at all averse to the use of MIM parts, where appropriate. Note those last two words!
As someone else has noted, it's just another metalworking method, and has strengths and weaknesses. Far too few engineers understand them, with a corresponding drop in understanding amongst the general public.
First off, a steel MIM part can be treated like any other steel part; it can be welded, soldered, blued, hardened, and tempered. This is important to understand, as there is a perception out there that the parts are not "real" steel. They are!
The advantages of an MIM part do not generally include raw cost; the material is expensive, and the molds are horrendously expensive. The benefits come in the area of post-fabrication. The MIM part, as noted, can be heat treated - the benefit is that they don't need to be, as the hardness of the part can be engineered in when the part is made. The parts come out ready to use; no additional surface finishing is generally needed. Finally, the parts can be made in shapes that would be extremely expensive or nearly impossible to economically machine.
The downsides? Cost, as already noted. Additionally, the tolerances for an MIM part generally need to be larger; it's hard to hold them to .001" in all dimensions (though they're getting better all the time.) Another problem is that the technology doesn't work all that well for parts that are more than about 3/8" thick (again, this gets better on an almost monthly basis), nor on stressed parts that are very thin.
There are other, less obvious pros and cons of MIM parts, but you get the idea - MIM, like anything else, is a balancing act.
Now here's the part that those of you who aren't fond of MIM should understand: the problem isn't with the technology, but with the engineering behind the part itself.
As noted, MIM on a per-part basis is pretty expensive, but since they can be engineered with specific traits they can eliminate some expensive secondary operations - hardening, for example. Here's the problem: let's say that you are building 1911 sears, and MIM seems a good method for producing them. You decide that the sear has to have a certain hardness (so that it doesn't wear), and since the surface finish is good "as produced" you think you're home free.
The trouble is that the MIM part is the same hardness all the way through, since that's how it was engineered. This is great for reducing sear face wear, but with hardness comes brittleness - and that thin edge is quite brittle. What you need is a surface hardening of some sort for wear resistance, with the underlying material left softer for strength. You COULD do that with an MIM part, but if you did you'd negate one of the primary benefits of the method: the elimination of secondary operations. So the company chooses to continue to use the MIM part as designed, and which is a poor choice for the application. No wonder some people don't like them!
The bottom line: if you have trouble with MIM parts, it's not the part's fault - it's the fault of the engineers in the company that designed the part. (Frankly, I wouldn't want to buy an entire gun from a company that botched the engineering that badly, regardless of whether or not I replaced the parts in question. I'm funny that way!)
As someone else has noted, it's just another metalworking method, and has strengths and weaknesses. Far too few engineers understand them, with a corresponding drop in understanding amongst the general public.
First off, a steel MIM part can be treated like any other steel part; it can be welded, soldered, blued, hardened, and tempered. This is important to understand, as there is a perception out there that the parts are not "real" steel. They are!
The advantages of an MIM part do not generally include raw cost; the material is expensive, and the molds are horrendously expensive. The benefits come in the area of post-fabrication. The MIM part, as noted, can be heat treated - the benefit is that they don't need to be, as the hardness of the part can be engineered in when the part is made. The parts come out ready to use; no additional surface finishing is generally needed. Finally, the parts can be made in shapes that would be extremely expensive or nearly impossible to economically machine.
The downsides? Cost, as already noted. Additionally, the tolerances for an MIM part generally need to be larger; it's hard to hold them to .001" in all dimensions (though they're getting better all the time.) Another problem is that the technology doesn't work all that well for parts that are more than about 3/8" thick (again, this gets better on an almost monthly basis), nor on stressed parts that are very thin.
There are other, less obvious pros and cons of MIM parts, but you get the idea - MIM, like anything else, is a balancing act.
Now here's the part that those of you who aren't fond of MIM should understand: the problem isn't with the technology, but with the engineering behind the part itself.
As noted, MIM on a per-part basis is pretty expensive, but since they can be engineered with specific traits they can eliminate some expensive secondary operations - hardening, for example. Here's the problem: let's say that you are building 1911 sears, and MIM seems a good method for producing them. You decide that the sear has to have a certain hardness (so that it doesn't wear), and since the surface finish is good "as produced" you think you're home free.
The trouble is that the MIM part is the same hardness all the way through, since that's how it was engineered. This is great for reducing sear face wear, but with hardness comes brittleness - and that thin edge is quite brittle. What you need is a surface hardening of some sort for wear resistance, with the underlying material left softer for strength. You COULD do that with an MIM part, but if you did you'd negate one of the primary benefits of the method: the elimination of secondary operations. So the company chooses to continue to use the MIM part as designed, and which is a poor choice for the application. No wonder some people don't like them!
The bottom line: if you have trouble with MIM parts, it's not the part's fault - it's the fault of the engineers in the company that designed the part. (Frankly, I wouldn't want to buy an entire gun from a company that botched the engineering that badly, regardless of whether or not I replaced the parts in question. I'm funny that way!)
cntryboy1289
New member
Winchester Barrels
Jim what I didn't like about those particular barrels is they looked like the dickets when the end was worn down and that happened a few times. I also like a little more heft on the muzzle end myself. Like what was said though, the barrels weren't the worst part of that particular gun.
I agree with the last post on MIM and this is where I have a problem with it the most. Revolver parts for years was casehardened mild steel where the case was rugged and the part could withstand the shock of operating. With the MIM parts, you don't get that. I have seen a few cracks because of this already, not sure how many more down the road will be more apparent, but I would think it is on the way. Those new S&W 500's produce quite a bit of recoil and shock on the parts, I am interested in seeing how long they stay with it or have problems.
Jim what I didn't like about those particular barrels is they looked like the dickets when the end was worn down and that happened a few times. I also like a little more heft on the muzzle end myself. Like what was said though, the barrels weren't the worst part of that particular gun.
I agree with the last post on MIM and this is where I have a problem with it the most. Revolver parts for years was casehardened mild steel where the case was rugged and the part could withstand the shock of operating. With the MIM parts, you don't get that. I have seen a few cracks because of this already, not sure how many more down the road will be more apparent, but I would think it is on the way. Those new S&W 500's produce quite a bit of recoil and shock on the parts, I am interested in seeing how long they stay with it or have problems.