About Flag Burning

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People, people - the flag is a symbol. It means something completely different to those who would burn it than to you or I. You'll probably find you agree with them more than you think - they see the flag as a symbol of government, not of the people of the nation. Changes everything, eh?

We should be worried more about actions that damage our communities, and less about symbolism.

Coinneach, you beat me to it. The retiring of a flag is actually quite a ceremony - each stripe is burned seperately, and such.
 
I served my country to protect the rights guaranteed by the constitution. I believe if I want to burn a flag that I purchased I have that right. They are methodically testing the waters for a complete re-write of the constitution by slowly trying to chip away at the bill of rights. The senate has twice shot down this amendment and hopefully will again.

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"GottaShoot30, GottaShoot27, GottaShoot23, GottaShootKimber - I just wish I had more time"
 
freedom for all or none. if we are going to accept the Bill of Rights, that means we have to accept all of them, wheither we like it or not. yes, it burns me up to see somebody burning the flag, but as sad as it may be, it is their right...MO

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what me worry?
 
You all talk about freedom of speech but in reality you don't have it today because the liberal media has it...NOT YOU! Just go up to CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS and try to get some air time to promote the second amendment. Guess what? They will ask you when you want it.....the laughter, that is. Even if you offer to pay good money for airtime on a pro gun commercial they will say NO. The question is who really has freedom of speech? Certainly not little guys like us yet you defend the first amendment more strongly than you do the second. What is wrong with this picture? We need TRUE FREEDPM OF SPEECH BY PASSING LAWS THAT ALLOW ALL PEOPLE AN EQUAL VOICE. Otherwise you will continue to be ignored by the anti gun media who says things like flag burning is speech. Hey, I don't like the white house. What if I excersised my freedom of speech and burned it? OH, yea, I forgot, the white house belongs to the people so you can't burn it. But then so doesn't the flag?

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
I find it tragically ironic that just a few days ago our Congress was ready to further trash the 2nd Amendment. But now ... now we need to be patriotic, and preserve the flag.

I hold the concept of liberty dear, I treasure the memory and works of the men and women who built this country, and I respect our flag as an important symbol of our freedom, heritage and high ideals.

But, I find it cynical and absurd that our politicians will make such a show of patriotism when they otherwise seem to care so little for what that flag represents. We'll survive quite nicely without amending our Constitution to prevent flag desecration. I'm not quite so sanguine about our prospects if we trash the 2nd Amendment.
 
The Bill of Rights is not a buffet to be picked and chosen - we all get the whole meal.

Thank the Stars and Stripes that we live in a country where we CAN burn the flag if we choose to.

I'd be the first to show up with my personal fire extinguisher.

Join NRA, GOA and vote!
CMOS
 
If you want freedom for yourself, you had better pursue freedom for everyone. You don't like flag burning? Wonderful, don't burn one. You don't like full-auto weapons? Wonderful, don't buy one. Just don't be quite so quick in telling me what to do with mine.

Are we going to start nit-picking the wording of the Bill of Rights as the anti-gunners have? So, since the word "expression" is not explicitly used, that means that mimes do not have freedom to annoy, that deaf people have no right to sign language? Please. Let's not beg the omnipotent state to strip away our few remaining civil liberties.

I agree that burning the flag is a stupid idea, if the idea is to disgrace the American people, and especially, her fallen soldiers. If, OTOH, the idea is to say the federal gov't is out of control, and you're not buying their bs anymore, then I'd agree with your premise, if not with your actions.

I can see how for some folks burning the flag could constitute "fighting words". However, there's a big difference between a punch in the mouth and a shot to the heart. And expect to get punched back, BTW.

If I buy a flag it is mine to do with as I please. What's next, NICS for flag purchases? No libertarians, socialists, communists, ACLU members or anti-war protesters will be allowed to purchase a flag? Will we need to take a 20 hour flag respect course in order to fly one outside our home? Who needs a flag besides the government, anyway?

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
I will spare all of you from my resume on my military experience and why I love the flag of the United States of America.
The law that needs to be passed is one that exempts someone from prosecution if he was defending the flag from some worthless idiot.
What we have is a bunch of whimps in this country that won't stand up when someone pisses on our country. Instead they want a law so they can call the police and let the government handle it...WHIMPS!.
The flag represents the times I spent working 72 hours with no sleep because my country needed me to. It represents the children who have lost their fathers in defense of our Country. It represents every name on the Vietnam memorial.

I wouldn't shoot someone over it but let me make this clear, WHEN I FINISH WITH YOU YOU WILL WISH I DID.
Let's stop asking the government to enforce what we should.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
Beating some one up for desecrating something that doesn't belong to you (ie., their own privatre property) is a little extreme. It could quite easily lead to a conviction of assault & battery (correct L-E folks?).


P.S.

If I ever decide to burn a flag for the many despicable actions the US govt has done to its citizens or to foreigners, please not the face :).



[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
This country existed just fine for 200 years without the supreme court ruling that flag burning was free speach.

You're freaking dillusional in thinking that our rights will be somehow limited by protecting all that we hold dear....the flag. I guess there is nothing that you freaking jerks hold dear anymore. Yelling fire in a theatre where there is no fire is not free speech because it will incite a riot. Burning the flag is not free speech because it causes a great deal of distress in America.....just like yelling fire where there is no fire, yelling "free speech" where there is no threat is the same thing, you freaking idiots!! What does more damage? Yelling fire in a theatre or upsetting a whole nation so some jerk can burn the flag? Get a freaking clue here, you jerks!! We got to stand for something or you will fall for anything! Geezus H. Freaking Christ, it's no wonder we are loosing the second, you a$$ holes don't have a friggen clue about free speech. You think you have free speech? Just try to get a second amendment supporter to have equal time with CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR, etc. You can forget it buddy! You don't HAVE free speech if they don't let you say a word!

God, I freaking hate this country!!

PS What does more damage? Yelling fire in a theatre or burning the flag? Do you get the point now or are you all a bunch of slack jawed faggots?

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
Well Frank....
Apparently you can't express your position without generalizing, sensationalizing and insulting everyone who doesn't hold the same position as you. You are always free to go else where.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Burning the flag (your own private property) doesn't do much damage (use good fire safety now :) ). Now yelling 'fire' or 'I've got a bomb' in a crowded public area such as a full theater quite possibly does. But then again; my dental work is ok, and I am a heterosexual.


[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
Well Frank, I'm glad to see you edited your message. What did you do - take out all of the four letter words you couldn't spell correctly?

I find it interesting you're so damn worked up about the flag, and then you state "God, I freaking hate this country!!" Fascinating. You're PO'ed because we love our country (or at least, what it used to stand for), but we don't think this is worth a Constitutional amendment. And, you are upset (apparently to the point of needing medication) about flag-burners, and our disagreement with you adds to your hatred of this country. Have I got that right?

Consider this, Frank. While they get to tinkering with the Constitution, do you think they'll stop there? How about a battle to restrict the 2nd Amendment? And, I'm sure we'll find some support for getting rid of a few more of those pesky 'rights' in the Bill of Rights.

Besides, I don't know about your town, but flag burning just isn't a real big problem in Arizona. Seems to me this sort of peaked during the Viet Nam war, and has been steadily going down hill.

Frank, I think I've gotten to know the folks on TFL pretty well, and I'll start things off by offering to put up $5 to buy you a ticket outa here. Adios, muchacha.
 
Now Frank, tell us how you really feel..geez!! You either believe in freedom or you don't. evidently you believe in the freedom to own firearms, or you wouldn't be on this board, but you don't believe in someone else's freedom to express themselves as they see fit. you sound like the government. you believe in freedom, as long as it agrees w/ your views, but if they don't agree w/ you, then they must be wrong and stopped. Frank, it's an all or nothing thing, you either have freedom for everyone, even if you don't agree w/ them, or you have no freedom at all. I'll have to concur w/ Jeff, if you don't like it here, then, by all mean, go somewhere else. we all get upset by what we see the government doing, and we fight any intrusion of our rights any way we can, all rights!!! so, if you don't respect the rights of everyone, then, by all means, catch the first plane out, cause we have enough people trying to do away w/ our rights, we don't need anymore.....

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what me worry?
 
I have come to realize there are a lot of idealist in this forum. I tend to consider myself a realist with hope.
1st. You should not be able to piss on the very country that gives you the freedom to express yourself. At what point does your your little pet "freedom of speech" end. You obviously don't pay attention to what liberals call freedom of speech. Anything they do that others don't like they call freedom of speech. Your freedom of speech ends when it harms another persons beliefs and/or faith.
2nd. The only reason they want to pass this law is because no one else is standing up for our countries honor. You turn your nose at our country because of corrupt politicians but forget who put them there.
3rd. In my thread "Smith is the man" many have wrote him off because he voted for this law. Let's ignore the other issues over one. No wonder our country is a mess. You have to consider what issues are most important to this country, not your personal interest. Then you have to consider who has the best chance at winning. If you vote for someone who has a snow balls chance in hell of winning you might as well vote for Gore.

I don't enjoy knowing that if I defend my Flag I can go to jail. If you want to express your freedom of speech then get on a crate in the middle of town and start preaching how much you hate America. Just leave our Flag alone. There are many things that are held dear in this country because of it's symbolism. Thats what seperates us from other countries. Our pride and blood are symbolized by that Flag. Wether they pass a law or not I will still defend it. Just like if they allow me to CCW or not I will anyway.
Freedom of speech has been watered down so much it's used for everything now. Think about what you say before you jump on the Government control trip. There are things that need to be controled. Choose your battles wisely because if you cry government control everytime they breath funny your opinion will get weakened and you will be ignored like a fly that annoys you at a picnic. We need to stand up when it is appropriate.
So please have a seat...


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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
I personally think that burning the flag is fine, if it represents your last act as an American Citizen. Do it on the dock before you get on the boat. I would be glad to give you a size 11 boost aboard!

That being said, we are talking about a piece of cloth. What makes it "THE FLAG" is your/our feelings (Patriotism?) Any person that would burn one obviously lacks these higher brain functions and is for all intents and purposes discarding rubbish.
Personally , I would rather see these people advertise their ignorance by playing chicken with a city bus, but i hardly ever get everything my way!
 
I disagree. The flag can represent the government or what the nation should stand for. I hate the government. And the nation should stand for freedom (it doesn't and hasn't for awhile now). So burning it could be an expression of opposing the tyranical nature of the US govt and the apalling lack of freedoms in the US.

FWIW we are still one the most free countries, but as legislation is passed each day, we fall faster down a slippery slope. The flag burning legislation is a prime example of the legislative attack on freedom as are crime bills that attack the 2nd ammendment. Sad to see so many support it.

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
The sad thing is that a lot of the distress we have today is because of a bunch of liberal supreme court justices who "INVENT" new meanings out of the constitution. Judicial activism, as it is called, has found words in the constitution that makes abortion legal. Please, would somebody show me where those words appear in the constitution? Same thing with flag burning. The supreme court made a real bad mistake when it said flag burning was free speech. It was a close decision with only one justice making the deciding vote. Up until that time there wasn't a problem. Now we DO have a problem. What are they trying to do, wreak this country with their NEW and CREATIVE interpretations of the constitution? That is where the real problem is. We need more conservatives in the white house so they can appoint conservative justices and undo the damage caused by the liberal appointees and their finding (really, INVENTING) new rights in the constitution that were never there to begin with.

I don't really hate this country. I'm trying to demonsrate just how upset some people (like myself) can become if they see someone burning a flag and then call it free speech. What a stretch to call it that. The founding fathers did not mean pornography, burning the flag, etc to be free speech. What if, just what IF, I were to publish a picture of a female child bent over in an sexually explicit, artistic pose? What IF I distributed this freely to anyone who wanted it? What IF I went to your local high school and distributed this material? According to your logic, this is free speech and I have a right to do it! You see, this is illegal because it is damaging to children and most people are against it. Burning the flag is damaging too! The founding fathers saw free speech as the ability to speek out politically without being silenced by the government. Does anyone here really think that the founding fathers were thinking "gee, child pornography, beastiality are free speech"!? They lived in a time where common standards of decency never even gave them pause to consider such nonsense. And then some of you come around and tell me it's a free speech issue? Man, you have been seriously led down the rosy path by the liberal media who has made you beleive this garbage. Don't burn my flag because I'm gonna get real upset if you do and so will millions of others. It may even lead to violence and severe personal injury. Thus, just like yelling FIRE, it is not free speech.

PS; and NO, I won't leave and I won't back down! The moderator could ban me but then wouldn't you be resorting to the same tactics the liberal controlled media uses? Silence them and you become irrelevant, right? You see, I do believe in freedom of speech, it just doesn't go as far a publishing the plans on how to make nuclear weapons or burning the flag.

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited June 26, 1999).]
 
It's all very simple:
an action harms no one else;
an action deprives no one else of their property;
an action does not infringe upon anyone else's rights;
it should be perfectly legal.

I buy a flag, and I burn it (for WHATEVER reason.) How have YOU been harmed? How has YOUR property been taken away? What right of YOURS have I infringed upon?

It upsets you? Where in the Constitution (or anywhere else, for that matter) does it say one has a RIGHT to not be upset or offended? That's the whole concept of "political correctness", that a person somehow has the right to not be offended. It makes me want to puke-after all, if everything that offends anyone is made illegal, who'd be free?

You want to punch me in the nose because I want to burn a flag? Great. What's the difference between assaulting someone because they're doing something that offends you and assaulting someone because you want to take their wallet, or just like to see people bleed and suffer? Nothing. Assault is assault, regardless of the reason. There's no such thing as a valid reason for initiating the use of physical force against someone. The use of force is moral only when it is used in defense of one's life.

Your rights end where my nose begins. You attack me, for whatever reason, and you open yourself to my own defensive measures. I will use as much force as is necessary to stop your attack, and if you attack with lethal force, you've forefeited your own right to life, and may end up on a slab in the morgue, where such human trash belongs. In short, you attack me for ANY reason, you've just dropped yourself to the same level as a street mugger, and will be dealt with accordingly.

Seems some people here are just as confused about what constitutes a right as are our bannit liberal enemies. Sad. Freedom and liberty are absolutes, with no restrictions. Laws should only punish the ABUSE of rights when they are exercised in an irresponsible manner resulting in harm, loss, or rights infringement to others. Laws punishing people for yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire are not restrictions on the right, but rather punishment for an irresponsible exercise of the right which can result in loss of life, health, or at the very least, money (theatre owner has to refund.) That is as it should be.

Don't restrict rights, else they become privileges. Punish the irresponsible exercise of rights ONLY.

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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
Well I guess I'll post my humble .02 worth.
I don't agree with everything Frank said.
I know that seeing the flag being burned fills me with such a high degree of anger, that it would take every bit of resolve I have not to rip the guys leg off and beat him to death with it.
However, one point Frank brought out, which I feel should be addressed more in depth. He brought out the point, that to try to get a prime time pro-gun commecial on TV was next to impossible. He's right. When Reagan was in office deregulating the hell out of everything, one of the laws removed was the "Fairness in Broadcasting Act." This said that the media had to allow BOTH SIDES to present their view EQUALLY. The media fudged as much as they could, but on the whole at least we could have our say. Now we see 10 anti-gunners against one pro-gun rep, and it's a slaughter.
Maybe if we get mad enough, we could revolt against the media. How can we hurt them? We could throw our TV's away. Hell that'll never happen. I put a post on the "Rules for Revolution." It is couched in early 20th century language, (1919) but the message is clear. See what it says about athletics and sexy plays (soaps and most movies today.)
As far as political correctness is concerned, that's an oxymoron empowered by morons. One must not call a spade a spade. You most not hurt someones feelings.
Reconstituted bull fodder!
Trying to get the "Fairness in Broadcasting Act" back would probably be an exercise in frustration. I wonder. Would a class action lawsuit against the media be feasible? I'm sure the tobacco suing greedy bums would jump on that one. Probably wouldn't work. Liberal judge would throw it out as being frivolous.
All I can say is I'm mad as hell, and I want to do something about it. But what?
Paul B.
 
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