About Flag Burning

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Ed Brunner

New member
I love our flag. I spent a long time in the military and have feelings about the flag that most civilians cannot understand. I have seen men risk their lives to protect the flag.Im talking about the flag itself,not the symbol that it also is.
My firsr thought about desecration of the flag would to shoot anybody who would do it.

I dont think that we need or want a Constitutional Amendment. If I buy a flag and want to burn it I think it is my right to do so. I know that it would make some people mad if I did it but I think that it should not be illegal.
How would you write such a law and how would you enforce it?
Suppose someone burned a 49 star flag. It IS not the flag of this country. Would that be prohibited? Should it be? Do you know what is done with worn out flags? They are burned.
It would have to be a pretty silly law which is why I dont think it is necessary.
Most of the forum members would,given the opportunity, protest some aspect of our government. Should this be prohibited?
What do you think????

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
The supreme court made a huge mistake when they ruled flag burning was freedom of speech. Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre is not free speech because it may incite a riot. Same thing could happen when you burn a flag. Thus it is not free speech (it's the same logic). In some places I know of, the harm caused by burning a flag could be greater than yelling FIRE because the guy doing the burning could be shot and killed!
 
I think Congress should use their time for more important things. It has only been 10 years since the Supreme Court ruled that burning a flag was protected under freedom of political expression. I don't like giving up rights even if it is a right that I personally would NEVER use.

------------------
Be a statistic.
 
Shot for burning a flag, surely this is in jest.

The civil liberties in this country are on a downhill slide (especially the Second Ammendment) because of idiotic laws based on emotion.
 
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is not prohibited if there is, in fact, a fire. However that is besides the point.

Burning the flag can be a form of political speech that needs to be protected. If one becomes so disgusted with the goverment and burning the flag is the only way to show that disgust, it should, nay, must not be banned.

What would be the next form of speech that TPTB (the powers that be)will decide should be banned or outlawed? The internet? Newspapers, radio, television or the movie industry. Wait, they have decided to step in and censor that form of speech haven't they.

If we are for keeping the Second Amendment as it is, we had better not show interest in showing approval for the proposed amendment regarding flag burning. That will be a slippery slope that we had best stay off of.

I must admit that having the firstfelon and Barney Frank against the amendment, but for the wrong reasons, is a little disconcerning for one that thinks both should be in prison or at least out of office.

FRANK H. If a flag burner were to be strongly punished by those watching the event, that punishment is vastly different from the goverment making it a crime to do so. I would not consider the act of flag burning, at this time, but I want the option to remain. If I were to killed for the act, I would rather that it be by someone who's passion caused him to do it than by a fedgoon who was looking for a reason to kill. Do you see the difference? While, I amy be dead, the first act was done by a person of principle and the second was done by a hired gun with little or no principles.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited June 24, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited June 24, 1999).]
 
You have every right to express your opinon by burning the American flag. I feel that I have every right to express my opinion by beating the living crap out of you for doing it. Technicaly, my act would be the crime, but what jury would convict me?
 
Burning flag, is anyone doing that these days, is certainly a tasteless act, and very upsetting to many. It does not however, endanger the counrty. Tinkering with The Constitution, over a minor though annoying matter or act is another matter entirely.

Alan
 
Burning a flag is the most perfect symbol of what this country stands for. It's ridiculous that such a thing had to go all the way to the highest court in order to be decided. To me, it's just so obvious.

So if flag burning as protest were made illegal, would that include, say, an Iraqi flag? Or a Canadian flag?

What a waste of government resources. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
 
Although we would all be disgusted to see a flag being burned I agree with you all that the flag also reprents our right to burn it if we so choose.

"BURNING" flags. Dosen't it seem that the use of the word BURNING is just another way to inflame (no pun intended) the public. Media says BURN BURN BURN. The first images that come to mind is Iraqi's, etc burning our flag. Hell, at least they will get more to the point and burn effigy's(SP?) of our leaders. If I had the time and skill to make one I'd probably burn one everytime I heard Klinton's voice (either one of them) :)

Anyway, I digress. Why make an Amendment banning burning. If it were to be done, why not an amendment on PROPER RESPECT to show a flag. I get pissed of when I see them on the ground, out all night, dropped on the ground, left out in the rain, blown to tatters.

I know a lot of town will put up a lot of flags during patriotic holidays but should they be excluded from removing them in the rain, etc? Yeah it costs money to put them up and down on many light polls but should the people see their government abuse them because it's not in the budget to pay proper respect?

Some people just put them up cause the neighbors do and then just throw them away and replace them when they get worn out! If they are worn or touch they ground isn't the proper, respectful way to dispose of them to shred and then burn them? WOULD_WE_STILL_BE_ABLE to respectfully dispose them under a "burning" amendment?

I remember when I worked summers for my grandfather. I pushed to get a flag pole and nice flag because all of the other stores had them. He gave in (easily). The first day after it was all set up and flying it was a Friday. Come 5:00 I was running like a whore in church to get out of there. My GP stopped me out in the parking lot and asked me where in the hell I thought I was going? I gave hime that DUH look and said I was outta here! He told me to be sure to et back here before sundown and take down our flag! HUH, what about all of the other flags around here? He said if we have a flag, we treat it with the respect it deserves. I took down the flag before I left and he told me not to let it touch the ground (he did not know that I had set it on the ground earlier while trying to untangle the wires on the pole). I folded it up and before I handed it to him he says thats not how you fold a flag.. Anyway, you all probably know how this one goes. Thinking back on it, it amazes me how much I forgot from Cub Scouts. I was conditioned by what I saw everyone else (not EVERYONE else but you know what I mean) do. However, about two weeks later, I did sneak in on a weekend and properly disposed of that flag (because I put it on the ground earlier) and replaced it with an identical one so he wouldn't be the wiser. I was taught the the Flag in NOT a decoration and I still feel that way today.

Sorry for being so sloppy and disjointed. I had originally just planned on a quick fly-by before bed but I think you know what I am TRYING to communicate. :)

The tired one,

David

------------------
NRA Life Member
It ain't my grammer, it's me tpyign!
Sometimes it is eaiser to apologize than ask permission
 
The flag is a symbol, not a religous relic. An amendment to the Constitution would elevate an object to the same status as a person. The Constitution is about the people, not the government. I pay honor to the flag, I do not worship it. Burn a flag if you want to. If you do it in my presence though, be prepared for what happens.

------------------
(!)
 
If one's actions do no harm to anyone else, deprive no one else of their property, nor infringe upon anyone else's rights, then those actions ought to be perfectly legal.

boing>Burning a flag is the most perfect symbol of what this country stands
for.

Exactly. Freedom not just of "speech", but the right to express one's political opinion. If the reasons for doing it are right, I might even join in. Otherwise, it would just p*** me off, but if someone wants to act like an a**hole, that's his right. No skin off my nose, just a few elevated blood pressure points.

------------------
Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc
 
I forget who said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". The Right panders to the emotions over "God (10 Commandments in school) & country (flag burning)", the left does it "for the children" (for most everything). I wish the idjits would can all the pandering a do gov'mint stuff like deliver the mail, secure the borders, make sure teh infrastructure is safe, provide for the common defense, make sure my air, water, & food is fit for consumption, etc.

I beleive that flag burning in protest is part of free speech. However, if you're desecrating it as a symbol of America and American ideals, best not do it around me. If you're doing it as a symbol of a lying, morally bankrupt, corrupt government (e.g. c. 1967-75), I'll pass the Ronsonol.
M2
 
Some letters from WND: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Freedom in word, not deed

Please read the First Amendment carefully and
tell me where it specifically protects "freedom
of expression"? I have come to expect better of
you than to parrot the ACLU/PAW line on this
particular abuse of our Constitution by the U.S.
Supreme Court.

The First Amendment specifies "Freedom of
Speech," which is an articulation of thoughts
intended to persuade by logic, by analogy, by
reference to authority or some other form of
argument. Our courts have perverted "speech"
by inferring "expression" as manifested by
actions totally unrelated to articulate verbal or
written language.

I would expect you to uphold the plain
language and meaning of our Constitution and
Bill of Rights, rather than slip into the careless,
feel-good banality so characteristic of too many
Supreme Court decisions of the past 60 years
and thoughtlessly mouthed by today's liberal
elite. One does not have to view the U.S. flag as
a sacred object to cheer on this congressional
attempt to tell the activist Supreme Court it has
erred grievously by its unconstitutional
amendment-by-interpretation of the First
Amendment.

Thank you for your willingness to express
unpopular views; you are truly exercising your
First Amendment right to do so. Burning the
flag or pouring blood on draft records, etc.,
however, is not "speech" by any definition
anyone ever dreamed of before the Supreme
Court divined some kind of mysterious
"emanations" from the First Amendment that,
the justices assure us, magically turn
inarticulate actions into articulate speech.

God bless you as you perform your role of
informing us of what those who abuse their
authority are trying to hide from us and forcing
us to think about things that we would often
just as soon not deal with. Please be careful,
however, to defend the Constitution as the
Founders wrote it, rather than join with those
who would debase it through careless or
deliberate misinterpretation.
I. JEROME KENAGY[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Torch a politico

I am in full agreement with you on the damage
such a myopic amendment would do to the
Constitution. Nevertheless, I cannot agree with
you on your hasty, yet understandable,
cravings to flick your Bic upon an American
flag during recent events.

Might I recommend a more effective manner of
protest? Burn a politician! After all, what harm
does a flag do?
ROBERT SPENCER
[/quote]

------------------
John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
A dire consequence of this amendment removes the Flag from the people and makes it an embodiment of the Gov't, not the country.

I foresee a new means of control, revenue collection and punishment. As we have seen throughout our lives, once a law is made, it is always added onto. US v Miller is the only 2ndA case heard this century, all other gun laws have been federal,state, local and all refer to Miller even when perverting Miller findings. Thus, I can see Federal and State regulations concerning flags...who can display one; official rules for displaying and care, etc. Non-compliance will cost you in fines and jail time. You watch what this Pandora's box will bring forth

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
DC,
As one of Prichard's "idjits", I would most likely attack, seriously physically attack, someone burning our Flag. Not because of the government it represents - the government long ago abandoned our American way of life. But, to me at least, our Flag represents both our highest ideals and the efforts of those who have struggled (and those who have died) attempting to achieve and preserve those ideals.

I do NOT believe that flag desecration is protected by "freedom of speech".

Nonetheless, I never have been comfortable making flag desecration illegal. Laws pertaining to disorderly conduct, assault, battery, etc. adequately address my personal "protest" of Flag desecration. ;)

My ambivalence forced me to sit on the sidelines and let others discuss this subject - until now. Your point that protecting the Flag could create an entire new bureaucracy dedicated to making rules and determining punishments, etc. has sold me. With all the trust in our government that it has earned, I cast my vote opposing any such amendment or legislation.

(I think Grayfox and I can handle it. :) )
 
I'm gonna toss something out that's been rattling around in my noggin.

Like Ed, I love the flag, and I love what it stands for. However, I also realize that a greater freedom is to allow one to express what he or she may feel about that flag.

That being said, take a look at the bigger picture of the Bill Of Rights in relation to this new law, and in relation to other laws that have been coming down the pike recently.

An aspect of the 1st Amendment is the freedom to express ourselves freely. The flag burning law prohibits a type of expression.

An aspect of the 2nd Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms. Gun control laws prohibit types of firearms that we are allowed to keep.

An aspect of the 4th Amendment is the right to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure. Confiscation and property laws, as well as court decisions (no-knock warrants), are prohibiting us from a blanket protection from tyrannical and Big Brother type search and confiscation of our private property.

Take a look at the rest of the Bill of Rights. The 2nd Amendment has been in the process of being slowly dismantled for a long time now, with the 4th and 1st now following closely behind. Then they'll limit what we can watch on TV, or read in papers, books, or magazines. Then we'll be subject to warrantless searches by guilt-by-association, or because some aquaintance or distant family member has broken some sort of law. Some of this is happening already. Yet, sometimes I think we here, the "faithful", are the only ones aware of this.

Politics, Bubba,and other things came up at a cook-out at my parents place last weekend. I was almost amazed how unaware they are of the things that are going on that they never hear about in the mainstream liberal media sources. Too much time spending their "golden years" of retirement watching Knot's Landing reruns on USA, or reading the latest Reader's Digest or AARP magazine (yeah, like that's an unbiased information source). I stopped by during the week with articles gleaned form the `net, a few books to peruse, and a few other tidbits to keep them busy for a while. It was really depressing.

Sorry for the digression, just had to get that off my chest.

------------------
Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arms reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.

[This message has been edited by DonL (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
Snake charming is what comes to mind.

You hypnotize your subjects with the emotions of "patriotism" with one hand, while you reach into their Constitutional pocket with the other hand and remove another right. How long are we going to sit back and let this erosion continue to remove our liberties? Write Congress as aggressively on this issue as you did on the gun issues.

No one wants to see Old Glory burned, but no one wants to see kids dressed in Goth with pierced foreheads and black fingernails either, but it's a liberty we enjoy here in America to express ourselves, and to protest, and to vote, and to keep and bear arms. etc. etc.
 
A thought:

When I was in the Scouts, I was told that the only proper method of disposal for Old Glory when it became tattered or otherwise unfit for display was to burn it.

Personally, I've ordered a Gadsden flag and will fly it on my porch right beside OG.

------------------
"We are going to fight. We are going to be hurt.
But in the end, we will stand."
--Roland Deschain
 
Hey, what about my right to use a fire extinguisher to put out a burning American Flag?

If you know that a group in your town plans to hold a protest and possibly burn Old Glory, be there with a nice 10 lb. ABC extinguisher and let loose!

It's just another way of expressing your opinion which is what the protestors are doing. Nobody should stop you if you are doing it peacefully. BTW, try to control the urge to spray those flag-burnin' as***les in the face with your dry-chemical.

Does anybody know if this has ever been done? I'd like to know what would happen if it were tried at a big protest with lots of media & the like.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top