About Chuck Hawks ,Stopping Power and the .45 ACP

ParaB.

You obviously don't like the .45 ACP as is evidenced by the flitting around different threads you've done today with the 1911'ish hatchet in hand. Calm down dude. A lot of us here like the whole enchilada. "9mm is wonderful, .40 is grand, load me up a .45 and stick it in my hand." Caliber purists are boring. I own .22, .32, .380, .38, 9mm, .40, .357 and .45. Who cares? Who cares enough to spend all this time squabbling over a couple a hundreds of an inch in case diameter? Your shameless promotion of 9mm is just as distasteful as a rabid .45 guru's calling everything with a lower number a "peashooter". There are a lot of different ways to defend oneself effectively with a firearm. Personally, I want everyone who's able to legally carry whatever caliber they choose to. Load up the CCW rolls and send a message to the liberals, crooks and lawmakers. We who legally carry any caliber have MUCH more in common than we have differences. Thank God for freedom in general and freedom of choice. ALL major calibers work.....if you shoot straight. Best.

U.F.O.
 
I don't understand why anybody carries a .45. With JHP or EMFJ bullets the ballistics of .45s and 9x19mm are virtually the same but the 9x19mm offers more shots and is much easier to control (placement!).
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It's obvious you don't understand. Look, there is nothing wrong with the 9mm, but the operand word in your quote is 'virtually'...if someone is strong enough and proficient enough to carry a 45 and shoot it with confidence, then why not...the 45 is a 'little better' with all other things considered equal. So, what is so hard to understand about that?
 
bullet caliber, weight, and velocity are just three parameters among the several (read infinite) parameters in the 'man-stopping' equation.
 
mathman,

It's not that simple. Let's assume that the .45 is, as you say, "a little better". Wouldn't having access to "a few more rounds" before having to reload be "a little better"? Wouldn't being able to crank out successive rounds "a little faster" due to less recoil be "a little better" too? Wouldn't having your rounds penetrate "a little better" be good?

The fact is that in the real world you don't get something for nothing.

Want bigger bullet diameter? Pay in mag capacity and reduced penetration.

Want a heavier bullet? Pay in increased recoil.

Want more power? Pay in increased recoil and a larger gun.

Want more capacity? Pay in reduced bullet diameter or increased gun size.

Pick what's important to you, but realize that you're trading something away to get what you want. Someone else picks something else important and trades away what you think is important.

The real kneeslapper is that in the final analysis, it probably doesn't make a hill of beans difference. If you can't shoot, the things that you picked won't help you, and if you can, the things you traded away won't hurt you.
 
JohnKSa,

I said...'if someone is strong enough and proficient enough to carry a 45 and shoot it with confidence, then why not...the 45 is a 'little better' with all other things considered equal.' If the recoil and weight doesn't bother someone (for example, someone who works out and is stronger than the average man) then that is a non-factor.

About the capacity, most shootings end after two or three rounds...you are right though, if the sh!t hits the fan and you are in the unlikely, long, drawn out shoot out, then yes...the capacity of a 9mm is better.

Reduced penetration? The penetration differences between 45 and 9mm are negligible...and I think that almost anyone (except for 9mm fanatics) will admit that the 45 is slightly better than a 9mm in terms of effect...I said slightly...so, I'll take every advantage that I can get. I don't see myself blazing away 17 or 18 shots of 9mm...and if I am, I'm probably in a situation that I'm not going to get out of anyway...everybody gotta die someday.

So, shoot what you want...I was responding to Para Bellum's question of why anyone in the world would want a 45...and by the way, there are plenty of people who would ask, 'why in the world would anyone want a 9mm?'

Respectfully,

mathman
 
mathman,

I ended up by saying it doesn't make any difference, so it should be clear that there's no need to take offense. Maybe you didn't, it's hard to tell sometimes on these forums--just making sure. ;)

If you can shoot a .45 well, you can shoot a 9mm faster and probably better--even if the recoil doesn't bother you, less recoil will still make you faster. That's why they handicap 9mm shooters in some competitions (especially ones started by .45ACP afficionados. ;) ) In spite of the handicap imposed, you still find some people shooting 9mms in these competitions for just the reasons I mentioned--increased capacity and decreased recoil. That speaks volumes.

As far as penetration, I was talking about body armor and obstacle penetration--as you pointed out, pretty much all premium ammo is designed to penetrate to about the same depth in human tissue regardless of caliber.

To be completely accurate, most shootings aren't shootings at all. In the vast majority of gun self defense uses, the gun isn't even fired! Not only is capacity irrelevant in those cases, but so is every other functional parameter of the firearm that you can list. Still, you have to prepare for the worst case, not the average case or even the most likely case.

BTW, love your signature. That is easily the most profound equation in mathematics--except that we engineers use 'j' instead of 'i'. :D
 
but to say that the stopping power of the .45 ACP is more myth and legend than reality is just plain BS...
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The only problem with that is that the stopping power of the .45 IS more myth and legend than reality. The world is full of examples where the .45 failed, just as it is full of examples of failure of the 9mm, the .38, the .40, the .357, and so on. When you get away from the world of anecdote and legend, and look at it objectively, there isn't that much difference between any of the common combat calibers.
 
>When you get away from the world of anecdote and legend, and look at it objectively, there isn't that much difference between any of the common combat calibers.

Absolutely! Even real worlds data is extremely flawed in the area of shootings. When someone says that they have been a cop,drug dealer, hit man, or soldier and has actually shot people, that is still irrelevant to proving the effectiveness of a handgun caliber. (unless of course the person is actually deliberately shooting people and doing the autopsy on there own afterwards)


Data samples are impossible to take because of the amazing differences in circumstances in which people are shot. All current ways of judging the effectiveness of a handgun are flawed. The most we have is tests to make sure they penetrate deep enough, and strive towards the largest of holes possible.
Obviously a .45 cal makes a larger hole than a 9mm, obviously two 9mm make a larger hole than a .45 cal, and obviously if either of those holes are in the heart, spine, brain, etc the person is very dead.
 
It's odd, I suppose, but everyone with whom I am personally acquainted who HAVE shot people with multiple handgun calibers (and they ARE few and far between) has no real caliber preference. Actually, because of their platform preference, they end up carrying 9x19mm in a Glock, P7, or BHP. Come to think of it, they shy away from the .45 because of capacity issues. They'd rather have MORE rounds than BIGGER ones.
 
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