About CC permits in general, a rant

C

chris in va

New member
I'm getting frustrated listening to all the general population's take on CC permits. It seems we have no validity like police officers manage to achieve.

They say, "you're not trained enough to make a crucial decision" or "the permit only requires a simple safety class" or even "we don't really know who you are or what you'll do with that firearm".

Honestly I'd like to see this take place. You apply for a permit and start a rigorous training program. Once finished, you're stamped 'USDA Prime' or somesuch, making you 'official'. Then people in general see you as a valid, functioning, upstanding member of society and...

LEAVE ME ALONE ABOUT CARRYING A FIREARM!

I mean seriously, I hear all the time...cops are to be trusted and honored, CC permit holders are gun nuts bent on throwing lead around at the slightest provocation. Sick of it.

So someone *please* tell me, what is the difference between a police officer and the average Joe wanting to honorably defend himself and his family? Is there some ceremony cops undertake that give them magical powers to make people believe they are the 'finest' individuals among us, just because they swear to uphold the law?

Hey, if they offered a multi-week course for firearms training and we'd get society's stamp of approval, I'm the first in line. But you know what, it doesn't matter how many classes, courses and practice I do...I will never be 'valid' to the majority of the US.
 
Who are THEY that offers this multi-week course for firearm training? You want that USDA Prime tatoo on your forehead as a sign of blessing from a government that has time and time again exhibited a hostility toward your effort to be armed and protect yourself? You want to be a part of the few, the proud, the OFFICIAL conceal carry permit holders? If not the government who else could offer training that would illicit the fawning admiration and respect of the masses you crave. The Dahli Lama? The NRA? NASCAR? It makes me cringe everytime I hear gunowners ask for more and more stringent requirements to exercise the RKBA. Just remember the current anti tactic is to wrap themselves around crime control and their buzz words are commonsense and reasonable.

Why do you even care if you will be 'valid' to the majority of the US? So what if they are indifferent or even disapproving. Accept your Rodney Dangerfield I don't get no respect and do your life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness thing. Clue stick. You are an amateur. I am an amateur. People who get paid for an activity are professionals. Never mind you may on your own hone your skills to a certain level equal to or greater than a professional. Your ccw permit does not and will not carry the prestige you seem to crave because you are not accepting the obligations and duties that a police officer or military man does. If you want to be Tackleberry be Tackleberry. Join the police force. DUH.
 
I was shooting handguns for YEARS before I got my CCW. I took the Well's Fargo qualification course when I worked for em' and scored in the mid-90% range and that was shooting my revolver DA, something I'd not really did up until then. I'd be willing to bet that I know more about using a handgun then 90% of the COPs that are out there. What the "powers that be" fail to realize is that many if not most of us with CCWs aren't first time handgun users, we've owned em' and shot em' for many years unlike a lot of COPs who've never seen a gun in their life until they get into the Police Acadamy.
 
Well, here's my two cents on the issue. I don't discuss gun or CCW issues with anyone that I don't already know is friendly and receptive about it. It's kind of like religion and politics--don't bring up controversial issues if you don't want to fight, argue, and defend. One thing that I've learned in recent years is that no matter how right you are and how wrong the other person is, there is no winning arguments with them. It can all be summed up in a statement I saw on a bumper sticker somewhere: "Never argue with an idiot; they'll pull you down to their level and beat you with their experience."

If the discussion comes up and you are in a position where you have to defend your decision to carry, remember above all to keep cool--the other peron is probably trying to get you to blow your top so they can report you as a hot head with a gun!

One thing that I say to such people is "exactly how much training does a police officer receive at the academy? How about afterwards? What exactly are the training curriculum requirements?" Usually they don't have an answer--they are rarely if ever well-researched on the issue. Then I ask them what the training requirement is for a CCW. Again, their answer, if they have one, will be based on ignorance rather than fact.

The other thing that I point out to them is that I am well-researched on the laws regarding ownership of firearms and the lawful use of force. I also go on to say that I can run rings around most cops when it comes to such knowledge (from a combination of personal research and courses that I've taken), even though it's their job to know these things. This brings me to my next point, that armed citizens have to know the law, with their rights, duties, etc. ahead of time to stay out of trouble. Cops don't have to know until after the fact (police depts put a positive spin on everything and confuse the public when their officers screw up).


And then I rest my case with the following statement: gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
 
Thats why I don't get a license. Don't think they mean anything anyways. Your just as screwed if you use it as if you didn't have one and every place other than your property is pretty much forbidden anyway. Its pathetic. Looks like another tax to me. And I know most of you will go oh no but its the law! Doesn't make it right. Since when does the law protect us?
 
So someone *please* tell me, what is the difference between a police officer and the average Joe wanting to honorably defend himself and his family?
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The difference is decades of vilification by the media and wussification of the population in general.

Our great grandfathers and grandfathers shot rabbits with a rifle or shotgun that was given to him at the age of ten by his father...and was celebrated as the all-American boy for doing so. You could buy a pistol and some candy at the general store in their day. Heck, my grandfather was on his high school's shooting team!..using REAL .22 rifles! And this was very near Philadelphia.

I chalk it up to the switch from ruralized to urbanized America. Now you must get a permit to hunt/fish anything and submit to a cornucopia of paperwork to buy a handgun.
 
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That's a perfectly valid rant. I call troll on #3. I could easily blow his logic out of the water but then I'd be feeding the troll.
 
So someone *please* tell me, what is the difference between a police officer and the average Joe wanting to honorably defend himself and his family? Is there some ceremony cops undertake that give them magical powers to make people believe they are the 'finest' individuals among us, just because they swear to uphold the law?
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The police aren't categorocally better people. I've known some who were fine men, and others who show how keen Kubrick's observation in A Clockwork Orange was.

However, a police officer has different duties, and ideally has adequate training and temperment to fully discharge those duties, which do extend beyond defense of self and others. That doesn't make carrying wrong in any way.
 
That's a perfectly valid rant. I call troll on #3. I could easily blow his logic out of the water but then I'd be feeding the troll.
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Well call troll on me and illuminate sir. A little shocked and a little amused at that accusation so feed me.

I totally do not understand the original posters plea for respect, admiration, approval from the larger population.

I totally reject encouraging government in expanding its training requirements for conceal carry until it gets to the point that the requirements are so strict and so expensive the people that 'earn' what I consider a right become a sacred society the original poster seems to crave. Sorry but that taste like the brown shirts to me.
 
I totally do not understand the original posters plea for respect, admiration, approval from the larger population.
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Well if you didn't understand his post then you certainly wouldn't understand mine, sorry. (Did you make LEO yet? Keep trying.:D)
 
Welcome to the nanny state. Not only do we believe that the government should make all of the decisions about our safety, we are very suspicious of anyone who won't conform.

Additionally, I'm ticked about sloppy debating.

For example, when any kind of an "anti" debates against something they don't like they use weasel words like "lots of people" or "everyone knows."

In my case it's helmets.

One of the old canards is what I call "The Brain Dead Biker Ward."

Many nannies insist that all bikers should wear helmets because accidents will render them cripples and everyone's insurance rates will go up.

Fair enough. However if that's a fact, then you must show me the hospital where all of these brain dead bikers are being cared for at public expense.

*crickets*

So you have run into the same sloppy debate. When they refer to "you," what they mean is everyone with a firearm that won't conform.

"You ignorant basstard, you're spending all of our health care money on firearms and then you have the smarmy attitude to disagree with what we all want. How dare you use your freedom to get your own way! We'll take those guns yet when we can hobble the The Bill of Rights!"

Yada, yada, bada bing, bada boom. Take out the word 'firearms' and you can substitute helmets, red meat, chocolate, cigarettes, hunting, and scratching of personal areas.

At the core, antis feel superior, and you, you insolent prick, are refusing to do what they want!
 
But you know what, it doesn't matter how many classes, courses and practice I do...I will never be 'valid' to the majority of the US.
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You say that like that's a bad thing Chris in VA.

Some states have no requirement other than a clean record (vermont and alaska come to mind), others want a piece of paper and a fee, yet others insist on a modicum of training along with the paperwork and fee, fingerprints, background check, mug shot.

You might never have a "badge" of authority from a governing body who will take on your liability and defend you should you need use of lethal force, but then again, you won't need to comply with all of their daily rules or restrictions, only those mandated by your local laws.

While I dislike the analogy, sheep absolutely fear the wolf and while they may tolerate sheep-dogs... who, looks a lot like a wolf; apparently the flock would prefer that no one have fangs, eat meat or whiz on trees to mark their territory.

Too bad for them, eh? To thine own self, be true. It is only too bad that, other than the two states mentioned above, one must pay a tax/fee/call-it-what-you-will in order to keep the flock and the wolf unaware. One could rant about that as well, or the injustice of uniform training nationwide, or lack of nationwide reciprocity I suppose... or one could move to one of those two states and just focus on the mundane day to day with no permits at all. ;)
 
That's a perfectly valid rant.
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Thank you. Not trying to rile anybody up, just venting.

However if that's a fact, then you must show me the hospital where all of these brain dead bikers are being cared for at public expense.
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I can certainly vouch for one. When I was a teenager my uncle slammed head on into a car on his bike, sans helmet. We visited him at the nursing home, all curled up like a dried leaf. He was in a coma for months, and came out of it as a 'vegetable'. Mom was an Occupational Therapist and tried to help but the staff wouldn't let her.
 
very different purposes

There are some pretty different factors between a LOE and a CCW holder. To being with a LOE is actually authorized by various State laws for what they do. They take an oath to uphold the law (for what that is worth.) Most departments have endless policies and procedures officers must go through before they are working alone in situations where they might encounter an armed BG. The have followup procedures to evaluate the shooting incident. And they have much deeper pockets than you or I.

I'm not LEO fan on many/most issues. You'll see that in my postings. But in this instance I have to be on their side. Generally CCW holders are interested in self defence as a primary reason for packing. You might come to my aide some day as another CCW and I'd appreciate your help. But the fact is I won't know you from the BG when I see you pulling your piece.

Even if you were associated some volunteer police or sheriff you probably would be limited in what you can do when it come to responding to various incidents.


I don't know what level of respect you seem to be searching for. I don't envision any state making anyone a certified good guy with a gun. Most places even the LEOs have to use restraint in certain situations when they are actually off the duty roster. The opposite is also true LEOs in some situations are required to respond. As a CCW holder I don't want that forced on me either.
 
A ccw holder is actually authorized to do what they do. They have about 20,000 plus odd gun laws on the books they have to abide by.

Many walking amongst us find guns an easy demon to wail and bleat ill over.
The increasingly urbanized society no longer depends daily on arms as did our more bucolic forbears. Thus skill at and knowledge of arms is whatever people get from the boob tube or the bird cage liners with newsprint on them.

What can you do? Be a good ambassador for all gun owners. Conduct your affairs in a manner beyond impeachment. Educate others. Be able to articulate your beliefs in a non threatening logical manner. Learn something about basic sales skills and sell it.
 
To me, the permit means I went through the hoops to get the thing. A simple gun training course, $50 and a background check. I can carry hidden, put it in the glove compartment, etc. Does it make me on the same lines as a cop? No way. The LEO's in my town has never expressed ill-will for me having one. (And yes, I have asked them what thry think about them)

I guess the main reason I have it is to buy more than one pistol at a time. It never fails, I always see 2 pistols I want when I'm in a gun store or gun show.

V.
 
I think some of us have heard/read of the hit rate that the LEOs have had in situations when they have had to use their handguns (most often the same kind of weapon a CCW-holder carries).

I was in an elevator once, with limited time, as elevators social encounters often create.. when I found two police officers getting on board. I asked if the local police department allowed for or used hollow point ammunition for the police force's duty weapons. They both didn't know. But in the remaining seconds the officer nearest me very fluidly and competently pulled the magazine out of his holstered weapon and showed me the first bullet in his handgun's magazine. It was a hollow-point.

I asked because I was concerned about penetration (or over-penetration, in this case) of self-defense cartridges, and had read something of Ayoob's expertise in legal proceedings in cases of self-defense. The two cops said they didn't know if "the force" used hollow-points. The cop nearest me, who had so graphically showed me his ammunition, had actually said he didn't have hollow-points, as an "I don't think so.", not with certitude. But his partner communicated to him, as I was just leaving the elevator, that he did in fact have hollow-points in his magazine. That is how qualified the police officers in my area are in regards to the last-ditch armanents they use and carry.

There are reasons for the resentments towards the inequality of CCW vs. LEO, legally and as social status. We, of course, have more time and inclination on our hands. But the fact remains.
 
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