A TRUE Texas Rebel for Gore!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
Haven't any of you seen the recent news stories that drug prices have gone up 150% in the past 8 years?

...

Or that they take busses to Mexico and Canada, where THE SAME DRUGS are only 1/3 to 1/2 the price here in the U.S.?[/quote]

You don't really think that this is bacause drug companies are simply "bilking the elderly" do you?

Let me make a little analogy for you...

How much do you think it's going to cost you to purchase your next Glock after they go through the lawsuit ringer?

One reason drugs are so cheep in Canada is that Canadians are not allowed to sue them for $1,000,000,000's of Loonies.

Price controls for drugs?

Think really hard about this one... Why do you think it cost $120,000 for a nearly worthless Bachelors degree in this country? Because they can get away with charging that much because of sloppy government tuition handouts to everyone with a pulse.

You think drugs are expensive now, wait until the Burecrats get their hands in the pot.

You are fooling yourself if you believe that government action will help concerns about healthcare costs.

AND (please, no flame intended.)

I am stunned that you are blaming the president, because you lost your job.



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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Dennis; I agree with you that sick kids need help and should get it. No problem, except to ask where does it or should it end? Should you be able to support children before you decide to have them? How many children should a person with no resources expect to have society support? Does society have any say in this situation or is society just expected to pay the bill?

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
Sick kids have the RIGHT to be made well. I DARE any of you to say otherwise. [/quote]

Otherwise.

So, what you're saying is, we have to do it...for the children?
 
USP, I blame the president because MILLIONS of people lost their jobs during that period, and that SOB Bush Daddy did NOTHING about it, and said repeatedly that there was NO recession going on.

The man NEVER, in any of the top spots he ever held, made a SINGLE POLICY CHANGE (you know, an actual DECISION?) on anything. That trend continued with him at the national helm.

And he's a felon (re: conspiracy, see above). By the time I realized that Klinton was one too, well, he was already in his second term. Had that not been the case, I'd have voted for Bob "Viagra-boy" Dole, regardless of what I thought of him. I cannot abide a felon in the WH.
 
Ok folks, now we're talking about something I know a little bit about. I am a physician, and here is my take on the situation with regards to health care:

1. Good quality health care is expensive. I treat patients without health insurance every day, and write off most of the losses. I would hazard to say that no one will be denied quality health care in America based on the ability to pay. Physicians, believe it or not (or at least me) are interested in healing more than the dollar.

2. A socialized medical system is not something you would want. People in the US are used to first class health care and they have been getting it, although HMO's have interfered with this in the recent past. The majority of medical research and innovation in the world is carried out in the US, which without question, has the best the world has to offer in health care training. A socialized system is non-competitive, ie you are assigned to a physician, and he is guaranteed a salary, whether he wants to take good care of you or not. In Canada, physicians have a salary limit, and when they reach that limit, they can simply go on vaction for 3 or 4 months, leaving their practices and patients (this is a FACT). If you have a brain tumor, and need an MRI, the rationing of health care resources may mean that you will have to wait weeks or even months to receive the scan before anything can be done therapeutically. That could be a death sentence in terms of prognosis. That is why so many Canadians will go accross the border to get a needed diagnostic or therapuetic test done in the states.

3. HMO's limit access to providers and specialists, which makes them profitable, but often this care results in diagnostic delays. Additionally, HMO's can employ "gag clauses" to prevent your physician from describing the best (and often, most costly) treatment with you. Realize these companies are FOR PROFIT, and make a dollar by denying or limiting care of their insured patients.

4. Medicine costs for patients are skyrocketing. Many medicare patients cannot pay for monthly medications with their entire social security check. Other healthier patients are on fewer medications and this is not even an issue for them.

5. My solution: enroll patients in a voluntary Medicare drug program. For the cost of $50 to $100 per month, patients can enroll in this plan, which would be subsidized by the Social Security program. Patients who pay less than $50 dollars a month would elect not to enroll, saving taxpayer dollars. To cover every senior's prescription drug bill would probably bankrupt Medicare and Social Security. For the patient with 1,000 dollar or more drug payments a month, this plan would be a BARGAIN.

6. The solution to HMO's is not to sue them. Patients would get very little in terms of money once the attourneys get paid, and patients would be denied treatment during the critical time when they would receive a benefit medically. Here is my plan: create a review board from a list of board-certified physicians in academic institutions. Provide a national toll-free number to call if a patient thinks he has been denied appropriate health care by an HMO (physician recommends treatment, but HMO denies it). Upon calling that number, physicians not in the HMO plan are randomly selected and asked to review the medical record within one week. If the treatment was deemed appropriate by an academic, board-certified physician reviewing the case, the insurance company pays for the test and a punitive damage equal to ten times the cost of the test is paid to the patient. If the test was deemed unnecessary, the physician requesting the test is fined $500.00 per incident. This will provide immediate remedy for the patient, and prevent overutilization by health care providers. The reviewing physicians could be paid a nominal fee by the agency which would come out of the judgement against either the physician or the insurance company. And the attourneys wouldn't make a dime.

What do you think of my plan?
 
...where does it or should it end? Should you be able to support children before you decide to have them? How many children should a person with no resources expect to have society support? Does society have any say in this situation or is society just expected to pay the bill?

I see it this way: You can be doing well (I was), and have a sudden, devastating downturn. For a time, you cannot care for your family. So, should they be allowed to get healthcare during that period? Or should your children be seized by the gov't until you can "prove" you can support them again. Or should you NEVER be allowed to have children, because you MIGHT someday be unable to care for them?

Another point: A woman I knew many years ago was a real, um, slut. She had four kids by four men, none of whom supported her (or them). So, she lived on welfare. The state required her to be sterilized in order for them to continue paying her. Who's right in that scenario? While I agree that the state shouldn't have to foot her bills (I am quite against welfare actually), do they have the RIGHT to order you permanently sterilized?

Mort:

You must not have any kids. Either that, or you have no heart. You make the call. It's usually the yuppies who feel as you do. Or DINKs (dual income, no kids).

Westtexas:

I treat patients without health insurance every day, and write off most of the losses. I would hazard to say that no one will be denied quality health care in America based on the ability to pay.

That would be "denied EMERGENCY health care". As to routine/urgent care, the answer (from a guy who's BEEN there) is NO MONEY, NO DOCTOR. Period.

And I like your Medicare drug plan, which at $100 (even $200) would be a real bargain. I hope that's the way it works out.

---------------------------

Bottom line: these issues have no easy answers. But the abandonment of our sick and elderly is NOT the way to go, in the name of "capitalism" and "politics". That IMO, is pure bullsh*t.


[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited August 06, 2000).]
 
Dennis, you're doing an excellent imitation of a sarcastic, name-calling liberal ...

You can best honor the elderly by doing it personally, and taking care of your own. You can best help the poor by doing the same, and providing a helping hand to those folks that need one.

It is incredibly pompous of you to claim that the only solutions to these problems are government programs. Or, for that matter, that only your solutions are obvious and right.

And, friend, I don't give a rat's *ss how much you've earned or not ... that doesn't give you a right to claim one dollar from any of us, regardless of your pet cause.


We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in this country, and we recognize certain fundamental and civil rights. Beyond that, voices such as yours decry our 'greed' (Ebenezer ...), as you try to convince us to accept greater taxation and government programs while justifying your socialism with emotional appeals.


Economics is at least as complicated as the RKBA. Just as the RKBA philosophy is ancient and fundamental, the wisest roads in economic philosophy sometimes take a bit more contemplation. I would respectfully suggest that you do some reading ... perhaps you would find the papers at www.cato.org to be of interest (see also http://www.cato.org/research/healthandwelfare/health.html ).

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Jeff:

Go look an old person or a little kid squarely in the eye, and tell them that they gotta DIE or STARVE because you say so.

I pay a BUNCH of taxes. I hate where the money goes. But ALL things governmental are not BAD, just because they're governmental. Most are, but not all. YOU sound like an anarchist. After all, with NO government, you wouldn't have to pay ANY of your "hard earned bucks", now would you?
 
Dennis; I do not confuse people with a turn of bad luck with people who are third of fourth generation welfare habitues. In the "old days", families, churches and charitable private organizations temporarily took up the slack and helped the ones down on their luck. You see, back before the government took over and taxed so heavily, working people had money left over for things like that. Now that the govt has assumed responsibility for everything and everybody, we have a whole new category of poor folks and the government itself is the biggest eater at the welfare trough.
Makes you want out doesnt it??

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
Ed, I find myself in complete agreement. It's disgusting how things have become so twisted.

In the "old days", hospital rooms didn't run $3000 a DAY! If little Jennifer needs a week in the hospital (and the family is in financial distress), I don't know too many church organizations with that kind of money. Factor in the cost of the docs and the meds, and you'd be looking at a $30k bill. For a WEEK.

Now THAT is disgusting.

I do not (nor have I ever) advocated generational welfare. That policy has proven itself worthless. But people fall on hard times, and sometimes need help from "deep pockets". Am I offended at paying taxes to support it? Hell yes. Am I offended that these people get help? Hell no.

Sometimes, you just gotta suck it up. And yes Mort, sometimes it really IS (ugh) "for the children" (and the elderly).
 
Well, Dennis, I sure wouldn't want someone like you setting public policy ... sounds like you'd be swayed by every tragic story, and to hell with the long term consequences of your policy. Ever heard the expression 'bad facts make bad law'? They can also make bad policy.


I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist, to be precise. There are a lot of us out here.


And, perhaps someday we can compare 1040's and see who paid the most in taxes. I'll compare favorably. But, so what? Doesn't change the right and wrong in this debate.


Ed gave you a pretty good idea of alternatives to the ills you deplore, as did Westtexas. Government programs are not the only way to solve the problems we all face.

If you want a feel for how much government is intertwined with your life, pay special attention to the news sometime. Note how nearly every story involves some government agency. It wasn't always that way ... America was built by individuals and communities, not government programs. And, therein lies its strength, I assure you.


Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Jeff, if I felt that anyone would DO anything about all this, my stand would be different. BTW, I'm swayed by REALITY. BTDT. These medical issues have been boiling in debate for 20 years now, as costs have spiraled into to ionosphere. NOTHING has been done.

Exactly when would YOU advocate "doing something", as opposed to working yer jaw? (or fingers, as the case may be)
 
This is so stinkin' disgusting.

Dennis, let me tell you a story:

Back in the mid-70's my younger brother was born, I was in my early teens. He had a serious birth defect called biliary atresia. He was one of the first children to have the standard operation for that ailment done on him, known has the Kasai Procedure. My father had a good enough job, but it was not enough to pay all of the doctor bills, so he took a SECOND full-time job to help pay for it all. One of the doctors that worked on by brother was with Southwestern Medical School, he said that if we ever got a bill from his office, to send it back, because that was all research and we should not be charged. I saw a SINGLE bill from one of the other doctors (in the mid-1970's, remember, before health care costs skyrocketed) it was roughly equivalent to what you said your salary was in a good year - around $125,000! Later, after my little brother had recovered from the operations and was doing well, he was one of the first children to be considered for a liver transplant. They said that he was doing too well to have a transplant - he died about a month later; at two-and-half years old.
I respect my father more that any other person in the world, just for that one act of working 80 hour weeks for his son. There have been other things to respect him for, and I do, but that one is the greatest. When my brother died was the ONLY time I have ever seen my father cry. Sure, life gets tough, but you just have to get tougher.

Here's another story:
I was married on 1989, my first child was born in 1991. I was almost always employed from 1987 through 1994. Since 1994, I have been laid-off from 5 jobs in a row! Now, I have started a new job doing something I hate with a 50% pay cut, just to get by and get benefits. My greatest wish right now would be to make enough that my wife doesn't have to work.

I have never made more than $30,000 a year. We now have 3 kids, and live in an 1100 sq. ft., 3 bedroom mobile home. I still ache for a real house, and for enough discretionary income to be able to buy some of the cool toys we discuss here on TFL. We have had some tough times, but NEVER EXPECTED ANYTHING from the government - health care or otherwise!

Your $125,000-a-year income is something that, right now, I can only dream of. Be thankful for it and kwitcherbitchin'.

A vote for Gore is a vote FOR socialism and still-higher taxes, and AGAINST freedom and our children's future.

Donations accepted. ;)

WESTTEXAS: Thanks for the insights - good points.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
Jeff:

Go look an old person or a little kid squarely in the eye, and tell them that they gotta DIE or STARVE because you say so.
[/quote]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
kjm:

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO HEALTHCARE. You have every right to go out and get a job, and pay for your doctor yourself.

Dude, tell that to a sick little 4 year old girl, whose parents can't afford to take her to the doctor.

"Mommy, will you make me feel better?"... "I'm sorry sweetheart, but we can't afford a doctor. Maybe if you go get a job and help us bring some money in, then we could take you."
.[/quote]

BULL****!!!!!!!!!

You are responsible for your actions. If you don't have a stable income and housing and other things needed to raise a child then keep your damn pants on. I also have no sympathy for these poor women who's men abandoned them with children. Like those guys exhibited no characteristics that may have hinted that they were useless irresponsible POS's?

Sorry, I know there are actual hard cases out there, well, there always will be. My life aint perfect either, I deal with it. In the mean time, I am surrounded by single-parent families, mommy drinks, daddy drinks, everybody drinks, but nobody has any money for the children. Kids go to school yelling "yeeha" because they got their check from the gubmint yesterday!

These are the Clinton supporters, completely irresonsible, unreliable useless dregs of humanity.

Every time I see one of those ads to "help the children" living in the desert somewhere, I say, sure I'll help you, here's a box of condoms! Noooo, instead we do what we can to keep these poor people barely alive, just healthy enough to reproduce and continue the problem.

If I could have my way, these useless scum parents would get a beating, plain and simple. Innocent children are left holding the bag for the stupid actions of their parents. They always pay the price.

Now flame away.....
 
While we are deploring the high cost of health care it might help if we viewed the problem in a cause and effect perspective. Consider this, only about 5% of Americans could afford necessary health care if they didnt have insurance. Insurance at the same time makes health care affordable and unaffordable! When I had my heart problems and needed a whole lot of plumbing, I didnt ask how much it cost. After all I had insurance. The man who did my plumbing is a world class expert at what he does. He works seven days a week from before dawn until after dark. He probably makes many millions of dollars a year. Is he worth it?? Oh, my YES!!!

But if there were no insurance, he would probably still be living in a third world country and I would be dead.

So, again, where does it end? How much would the same man be making and what would be our life expectancy and our level of health care if we had to pay for it ourselves?

And the kicker is that the US Government is the biggest insurance company in the world and it loses money every year!!!

So will it EVER end???

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
Dennis states: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>These medical issues have been boiling in debate for 20 years now, as costs have spiraled into to ionosphere. NOTHING has been done.[/quote]

Nothing has been done? Regarding health care in the last 20 years? Oh, c'mon. Well, the Democrats successfully gutted the medical savings account concept I suppose ... ;) As far as me doing something, I worked on a national health care committee in my profession, but to be frank, it was dominated by people like you, who believed only more government could solve these problems. They rejected MSA's and other free market proposals as well. Each of us does what we can.

And, I've supported my Dad, my father-in-law, and my Mother to varying degrees for many years, including helping an old friend buy a home. I try to help those who need a helping hand. And, I damn those who steal from me at gun point ... I will resist thieves and fools all my life, no matter what uniform they wear.


Dennis, I've seen your posts elsewhere, and we're in agreement on the RKBA. To be frank, I don't appreciate the tone of this debate, and I don't see any purpose in continuing. We'll agree to disagree.

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Dennis,

You seem to want every government program eliminated except for the one that is near and dear to your heart. You have made an impassioned arguement for free medicine for Americans in need. Other people can make just as impassioned a plea for government programs that mean as much to them. This is how we got into this mess with big government! Every program has an interest group that thinks it is essential.

You speak of medical care being so expensive today, that is correct. But no child is denied medical care. If they are not covered by medicaid they can be treated at non-profit hospitals for free. This is maybe not the best treatment but it is treatment. Face it, life is not fair! Never has been, never will be. The wealthy will always receive better medical care than we will as long as we live in a free country.

The government will do nothing to make medical care less expensive for people, only more expensive. What are the reasons for these huge costs? Could it be because some think they need to see a doctor everytime they have a runny nose? Could it be because doctors are so fearful of being sued that they order whole banks of unnecessary tests just to cover their rears? Could it be because many doctors have to pay over $100,000 a year for malpractice insurance?

Conservatives talk about the breakup of families and communities. This is a large problem in todays society. Seventy years ago, if you had a problem, you got help from your parents, your children, your neighbors, your church, your co-workers or community organizations. People helped their neighbors because of a sense of obligation and the knowledge that someday they may need help as well. The community had to chip in or all would suffer. Now days, you don't need to get involved because the government will take care of any and all problems and our sense of obligation and community is being lost. This loss will only get greater as government feels it necessary to do more and more for people.

I don't know why you felt it necessary to tell me how much you pay in taxes. That does not impress me. What would impress me was if the government let you keep most of that money and you then gave it to charity or to help the poor get medical care.

You may call me Ebenezer all you wish, doesn't bother me a bit. But I tell you what, if my elderly parents or elderly neighbors were having to choose between food and medicines, I would gladly pay for one or the other.

Now if you really want to call someone Ebenezer, find someone who lets their parents go wanting while complaining to the government and crying to the media! Being that you make such a good living, you take care of your family and friends, I will take care of my family and friends and everyone else can do the same. Then we will not need government to do it!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dennis Olson:
USP, I blame the president because MILLIONS of people lost their jobs during that period, and that SOB Bush Daddy did NOTHING about it, and said repeatedly that there was NO recession going on.[/quote]

Dennis, someone breaks into your house late one night, and proceeds to do what scum like this does.

You gonna blame the police for doing nothing?

You gonna blame the police for not changing polocy?



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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
 
Jeff:

Yes, we do disagree on this issue. It is the ONE issue where I consider myself a flaming liberal. My family and I had been in that situation, and I well understand that help is sometimes needed. If I felt that it could be done through non-govt means, I'd be all for it (and AM). But the conservatives only seem to be able to drag out the same old "tax credit" crap. That does no one any good, except on April 15th. There are 364 more days in a year.

Cactus, you said: You speak of medical care being so expensive today, that is correct. But no child is denied medical care. If they are not covered by medicaid they can be treated at non-profit hospitals for free. This is maybe not the best treatment but it is treatment.

Have you or your family ever been recipients of this "treatment"? In many cases the care provided is a TACIT "denial of services". You gotta be there, and see it for yourself. I don't think that they need the very best, but it needs to be adequate and given in a timely manner. This frequently does NOT happen. And again, we're talking about EMERGENCY treatment. Non-emergency treatment is pretty much not available. And exactly how many "non-profit" hospitals are left? Not very damn many, that's for sure, and they're being bought up every day. What happens when they're gone?

And I DO give to charity. I give 10% of my income to the church. They help the needy. (How much do YOU give each year?)

Ziggy:

If you had anything substantive to say (or if you'd actually READ my posts above), I would answer you. But since you're just flaming me (without thoroughly reading what I'd posted earlier), I'll ignore you.

Ed:

I don't have the answers. So many of our issues today seem like vicious circles. No way out, and no way to make it better. I heartily agree that insurance is both part of the solution as well as the problem. Will it ever end? Not without another revolution, I'm afraid.

*sigh*

For the record, I feel that each of us, as part of our right to "life, liberty and the persuit of happiness", has the right to be well, as in "free from sickness". That doesn't mean government-sponsored health care. But it DOES mean AVAILABLE healthcare for all, even those that can't afford the "best". How that care gets delivered.... I dunno.

Sick people cannot contribute to the economy, and cannot help themselves. I'm sort of surprised that many of you, so well educated in many things, have failed to grasp this point. Well, it just proves that demagoguery (sp?) is alive and well at TFL.
 
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