A thought on Euro police mouse guns
- Thread starter HiBC
- Start date
While most other countries do not have posse comitatis laws, we also do not have them in our constitution either. That concept came into existance only after the Civil War. Moreover, it does not apply to the present day militia, which is called the National Guard, unless in federal service. But you probably knew all that from when you served in the guard anyway. I served in a unit that was called out for a civil emergency, though not when I was in the unit. It was considered quite an emergency at the time, too.
Legumeofterror
New member
Some photos of police officers in various European countries. Lanyards were in use most everwhere.
Rome/Vatican City had various Berettas; M51s, 80 and 90's series pistols, with the occasional M12 SMG.
In Barcelona and Cadiz, Spain, Walther P99s with Spanish flags on the magazines.
In Lisbon, Portugal there were small Walther-type blow backs.
Revolvers for the Metro cops in Paris, with the occasional National Guard troops with FAMAS rifles and PAMAS pistols.
Rome/Vatican City had various Berettas; M51s, 80 and 90's series pistols, with the occasional M12 SMG.
In Barcelona and Cadiz, Spain, Walther P99s with Spanish flags on the magazines.
In Lisbon, Portugal there were small Walther-type blow backs.
Revolvers for the Metro cops in Paris, with the occasional National Guard troops with FAMAS rifles and PAMAS pistols.
Legumeofterror
New member
Continued...
The majority of the street cops in London did not carry firearms. When near places like the PArliment or in the airport they were armed with Glocks, semi-auto MP5s, and G36 carbines. Then of course the Guards with L96A2s.
The majority of the street cops in London did not carry firearms. When near places like the PArliment or in the airport they were armed with Glocks, semi-auto MP5s, and G36 carbines. Then of course the Guards with L96A2s.
though, the metro cops you show are not police officer but private security of the national train company wich is why they're not allowed to carry 9mm pistols. Same goes for money transport guards or city police (police municipale).FiveInADime
New member
The "AWP" if you will. Well that's what the video game generation likes to call it thanks to the game 'Counter Strike'. I would love to fire an AI rifle in my lifetime.
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the Walther was mainly used in the UK for close protection duties by the Police (private security don't carry for protection) it was withdrawn from service over a short period of time mainly following an attack on a member of the royal family- the protection officers weapon jammed and in the investigation was found to be not suitable for the role
not long after Brownings followed years later a combination of Glocks,Sigs and Walthers all in 9mm to the best of my knowledge have become the norm
its very uncommon to see a uniformed officer armed with just a handgun
in reply to the comment of firearms being a purely defensive/offensive tool, a number of levels of AFO exist, some are armed purely for protection while others are armed for armed response right up to rapid intervention/hostage rescue
Ulster is another game altogether, a mate of mine who spent time there was shocked to walk into a pub and see every man "concealing" a handgun, at that time anyone working for the crown (armed forces,police,prison service,intelligence types) had to be armed 24/7 for there own safety as even walking out of the front door could mean they were liable to armed attack, depending on what they were issued that could be anything from a PPK right up to a Browning with extended magazine and in some cases MP5 Kurtz and short barrelled assualt rifles as in car guns
not long after Brownings followed years later a combination of Glocks,Sigs and Walthers all in 9mm to the best of my knowledge have become the norm
its very uncommon to see a uniformed officer armed with just a handgun
in reply to the comment of firearms being a purely defensive/offensive tool, a number of levels of AFO exist, some are armed purely for protection while others are armed for armed response right up to rapid intervention/hostage rescue
Ulster is another game altogether, a mate of mine who spent time there was shocked to walk into a pub and see every man "concealing" a handgun, at that time anyone working for the crown (armed forces,police,prison service,intelligence types) had to be armed 24/7 for there own safety as even walking out of the front door could mean they were liable to armed attack, depending on what they were issued that could be anything from a PPK right up to a Browning with extended magazine and in some cases MP5 Kurtz and short barrelled assualt rifles as in car guns
One thing not mentioned....
And that is tradition. Europeans are both very "forward thinking", and at the same time very bound in tradition. Less so now days, as even "tradition" has taken a back seat to practicality in many things. But not everything....
It is somewhat ironic but in one regard, Eurpoean tradition is exactly the opposite of the US. From the cowboy era on, even through today, the US tradition is that the "good guys" carry large caliber handguns.
.45 or .44 caliber revolvers carried by the "good" cowboys and sherrifs (ok the bad guys had their share too, but even some of the bad guys were considered "heroes"), our troops with the .45 auto, up through Dirty Harry with his .44 Magnum.
Heroes in real life, and in fiction usually carried big guns. Only secret agent (and sneaky foreign ones at that) carried small caliber guns.
In Europe, the attitude was the exact opposite. Beginning back in the days before auto pistols, when all carried revolvers it existed. Large bores were for military use, and were also favored by anarchists and revolutionaries (today called terrorists). The 'good guys" (police) carried small caliber guns.
Europe was "progressive" in adopting auto pistols for military and police use well before the US, but they generally retained their "size bias". Small calibers for police, served them adequately, until recent decades. Economics also plays a part. Changing to a different gun, and caliber (even one currently in use by your military) costs more money than simply maintaing what you currently use. Until there was a clear percieved need to up gun, most didn't.
Today its much different, but the mindset of "we've always done it that way" carried great weight for a long, long time.
And that is tradition. Europeans are both very "forward thinking", and at the same time very bound in tradition. Less so now days, as even "tradition" has taken a back seat to practicality in many things. But not everything....
It is somewhat ironic but in one regard, Eurpoean tradition is exactly the opposite of the US. From the cowboy era on, even through today, the US tradition is that the "good guys" carry large caliber handguns.
.45 or .44 caliber revolvers carried by the "good" cowboys and sherrifs (ok the bad guys had their share too, but even some of the bad guys were considered "heroes"), our troops with the .45 auto, up through Dirty Harry with his .44 Magnum.
Heroes in real life, and in fiction usually carried big guns. Only secret agent (and sneaky foreign ones at that) carried small caliber guns.
In Europe, the attitude was the exact opposite. Beginning back in the days before auto pistols, when all carried revolvers it existed. Large bores were for military use, and were also favored by anarchists and revolutionaries (today called terrorists). The 'good guys" (police) carried small caliber guns.
Europe was "progressive" in adopting auto pistols for military and police use well before the US, but they generally retained their "size bias". Small calibers for police, served them adequately, until recent decades. Economics also plays a part. Changing to a different gun, and caliber (even one currently in use by your military) costs more money than simply maintaing what you currently use. Until there was a clear percieved need to up gun, most didn't.
Today its much different, but the mindset of "we've always done it that way" carried great weight for a long, long time.
There was never a tradition of the police in the eastern US carrying large caliber handguns except for state police. One imagines they somehow saw themselves as different. Likewise by no means did anarchists, nationalists and terrorists necessarily carry large bore revolvers. The shots that started WWI supposedly came from a .32 automatic fired by a man who had never fired a gun before.
glock_country
New member
In Austria, the police in Vienna carried until 1992 the Walther PP in 7,65mm with ball ammo. The police departments in the country (former Gendarmerie) carried the Browning HP in 9mm.
Now all police units in Austria carry Glock 17´s (criminal investigation Glock 19) with 100grs JSP flat point from Fiocchi.
Now all police units in Austria carry Glock 17´s (criminal investigation Glock 19) with 100grs JSP flat point from Fiocchi.
I have a Bersa .32 Lusber that was made for European and South American law enforcement in the 1980's. What a great shooting pistol! My guess is the main reason for switching calibers had more to do with the high capacity magazines of the 9mm Glocks than with the performance of the .32 acp.
While this is certainly true, what I was speaking of was the perception and attitudes of the general people. In the US good guys carried big guns, and were often lone hero types. In Europe, rather the opposite. This was not any kind of hard and fast rule, and actually seldom accurately reflected reality. It was just how many people, particularly those not actually in police work often felt.
But it was the common attitude, and reflected often in popular fiction. Not by any means the sole cause, or even necessarily the most important one, but before, and during the first half of the 20th century, these attitudes often were a significant factor, particularly in Europe.
Note also the era. In the early years of the 20th century, particularly in urban areas, the horse, as the primary means of transportation was being replaced. Trains, carriages, streetcars and simple walking in cities, with the indiviual rider declining. The advent of the motor car kicked the change into high gear. Lawmen in urban areas dealt less and less with the need to stop a horse mounted man. Carrying big bore guns capable of stopping a horse simply weren't needed.
And as automobiles became more common, and more commonly used in crime, note the change from the .32s to .38s, and eventually the .357 Magnum, in the US.
European police simply didn't face the same kind of situation as the US did, with our gangster era, prohibition, and the "motor bandits". For them, the small caliber pistols were enough, for a long time.
Well, sorry to contest but when I read about "motor bandits" leading the choice about issued caliber I have to answer... For the first, motor engines (invented in Europe) were common in Europe long before they landed to the states, and if you read real books about criminal history in Europe, you'll see that organized criminality was very rude in Europe long before the US were even discovered...
If small pistols were common until late as defensive pistol, it is not because of cars or what brand of criminal they faced, or cultural European thing, it is just because most police officers, until very late were carrying a rifle as issued firearm and because of it didn't cared for big bore hand weapons.... Look at pics of Europeans police officers and you'll see that rifles or sub machine guns were always carried on patrol. I hope that helped...
If small pistols were common until late as defensive pistol, it is not because of cars or what brand of criminal they faced, or cultural European thing, it is just because most police officers, until very late were carrying a rifle as issued firearm and because of it didn't cared for big bore hand weapons.... Look at pics of Europeans police officers and you'll see that rifles or sub machine guns were always carried on patrol. I hope that helped...
My image of a policeman when I was growing up was a thin man wearing a white shirt and tie carrying a revolver in a swivel holster. I grew up in a small town. These days they look a little different. However, they did have rifles and submachine guns. The police department, such as it was, shared a building with the fire department and the police side also had a garage door that was left open in the summer. The gun cabinet was in plain view.
Mrrandom, welcome to the Firing Line.
Which Walther model was it that jammed when truly needed during that attack? If you know any more about the reason for the failure, please share. If there have been problems with guns like my P99, I'd like to know. The PP or PPK, not so much of interest to me. Thanks.
The Redcoat in the picture had better be given a few moments before he needs to fire that rifle. The optical sight is totally wrapped in a sight-cover!
Bart Noir
Which Walther model was it that jammed when truly needed during that attack? If you know any more about the reason for the failure, please share. If there have been problems with guns like my P99, I'd like to know. The PP or PPK, not so much of interest to me. Thanks.
The Redcoat in the picture had better be given a few moments before he needs to fire that rifle. The optical sight is totally wrapped in a sight-cover!
Bart Noir