A reminder to DOUBLE and TRIPLE check a "safe" gun!

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dakota.potts

New member
Took my CZ out for some dry firing. I keep it in the safe loaded 16+1 so I took it out and cleared it. Muzzle down into the safe so the bullet's backstop would be the bottom of the safe and the dresser it's resting on down into the floor if it did fire. Only time I miss having a safety is for unloading or maybe dry firing.

Anyways, didn't visually see the bullet leave the chamber. I almost removed it from its safe direction, although I always check it again and again.

This time, however, as I made the decision to check it again before pulling the muzzle out of the safe, I saw the loaded chamber indicator was still popped up and sure enough a round popped out.

I never would have fired it without checking it again after I pulled it out of the safe, or so I'd like to think, but I'd hate to shoot out a wall of my house with what was a "safe" gun. Safety should not be a habit. Verify visually and multiple times! Thankfully I've made it a habit to stop what I'm doing and be very aware of the process of checking for a clear chamber.
 
Different methods, all of which work.

One is to pull slide back and visually inspect breach, and another is to lock slide back and insert pinky in breach to feel for the absence of the round.

But assuming racking slide unloads the pistol is not on the list.

And doing something wrong multiple times isn't much better. (I'll rack slide twice to be sure...)

The chamber check is what counts. And, recognizing that Rule One applies again as soon as you set it down. The only exception being the personal verification of the unloaded status.

Which has to be done correctly, every time you pick it up.

Even if you just checked it 10 minutes earlier. The safety habit to develop is to do a chamber check, with care, every time you pick up a gun.

The habit to avoid is making any assumptions of the gun's status.

As I understand it, this is the meaning of Rule One.
 
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I always rack the slide so that the bullet falls into my hand, but just like you I check, double check, and for good measure check again.
 
Not to harp on this, but there is no reason to check multiple times, like some kind of OCD thing.

It is only necessary to verify once, each time you pick it up. Do it carefully, and then you know what the status is.

You may be checking for loaded status, before holstering. You may be checking for unloaded status, before cleaning. But you don't know what it is if you don't check.

The key is understanding that, once that gun is no longer in you hand (or holster), the status becomes unknown again. If you set it down, the status can change. However unlikely, it isn't in your control so you simply don't know.

Let's say you triple-check a gun, then lay it down with the loaded magazine next to it. A few seconds later, you pick it up and rack the slide to verify status, then pull the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the floor before returning the gun to the safe. Which was your practice (habit).

Bang! Hole in coffee table.

I read about this incident. Seems the son-in-law was being helpful and reinserted the magazine when the dad was busy explaining another gun to another relative.

The gun isn't going to magically chamber a round while you are holding it, following an empty chamber verification. The ND occurs when you assume it is still unloaded some time later and fail to check.

Rule One is all about assumptions.
 
dmazur posted
Not to harp on this, but there is no reason to check multiple times, like some kind of OCD thing.
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I completely disagree. I handle firearms constantly, all day long. I have specific habits regarding checking the chamber of a fiream every time I pick one up. I don't think about it, I just do it. When I see a chamber is empty, I don't think to myself, "The chamber's empty.", I just automatically continue what I'm doing with the knowledge that the chamber is empty.

There is no safe direction in my apartment. If any firearm I own is discharged in my apartment, it stands a very good chance of going through a wall, floor, ceiling, or window.

So when I go to dry fire in my apartment, I want to make EXTRA sure my firearm is unloaded. A casual chamber check is not enough for me; I check it visually and physically a few times each before I start dry firing. This way I'm breaking my normal habits and now I consciously know the fiream is completely unloaded and there's no chance I did something stupid like rack a round into the empty chamber while checking it.

Call it OCD, call it whatever you want, but there's probably a reason I've never had a negligent discharge.
 
I never would have fired it without checking it again after I pulled it out of the safe, or so I'd like to think, but I'd hate to shoot out a wall of my house with what was a "safe" gun
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Never, ever dry fire without a solid backstop! I don't care how many times you've checked the gun ... It is still NOT safe to put your finger on the trigger unless you have chosen a specific spot for the bullet to land, which includes knowing that if a bullet comes out of the gun it will stop safely and not kill the 20 year old mom sleeping in her own bed across the street next to her 9 month old baby.

Which is what happened to my best friend's high school sweetheart.

More here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/practice-time/dry-fire-safety/

And here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/firearms-safety/the-other-three-rules/

pax
 
there's probably a reason I've never had a negligent discharge.
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I'm with you. I have handled firearms for over 50 years and owned them for well over 40 without an ND. I have heard people say that anyone who owns a firearm either has had an ND or will have one. It doesn't have to be so. Drop the mag, double check the mag well, lock back the slide and check with eyes, then finger, then eyes again. Call me OCD, call me over-cautious, call me a chicken, call me anything you want - I have never made an unintended hole in anything with a firearm, and I like it that way.
 
The key is understanding that, once that gun is no longer in you hand (or holster), the status becomes unknown again. If you set it down, the status can change. However unlikely, it isn't in your control so you simply don't know.
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This is the way I've always handled it. The gun is Schrödinger's cat if it's left my control in any way, for any length of time.

A few years ago, a friend and I bought several guns at an estate sale. As the guns were loaded onto his truck, we each opened the action and did a chamber check. Every gun on that truck had been checked twice.

We got back and began to offload the guns. The second one was a rifle, and when I pulled the bolt, a live round ejected. The answer? The Quantum Bullet Fairy. That little jerk goes around causing all sorts of malfeasance.

I've heard "I thought it was unloaded" far too many times to trust that phrase.
 
Theohazard said:
I have specific habits regarding checking the chamber of a fiream every time I pick one up.
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If you read my reply, that is exactly what I'm recommending, and what I do.

My "no need to check multiple times" comment was in reference to checking multiple times each time you pick it up, just to make sure.

Do it once, do it right, then proceed.
 
Yes, and I was pointing out that in certain circumstances I check multiple times; specifically if I'm going to pull the trigger. For me, I feel a need to check multiple times before I pull the trigger on a firearm, especially if it was previously loaded and I just cleared it.

But that's just the way I do it.
 
My method is pretty strange and OCD. I clear the gun, then point the barrel at a light on the ceiling (no one lives above me), make sure I can see light down the barrel, and then make sure I get an actual look at the breech face and firing pin. Every time I pick a gun up. Then I'll probably do that twice more before I dry fire.

It's somewhat twitchy, but I'll take inconvenience over ever negligently discharging a firearm.

Good thread, OP. Safety reminders are never a bad thing.
 
Just to clear a couple points up.

I never pull the trigger into the backstop of the safe. I just point it down when I clear it since that's when negligent discharges are likely to happen.

I do point my gun at a wall but always at a downwards angle. It is a wall on the side of the house where nobody sleeps. I always angle it down and often never point above my wall's electrical outlet.

Are there any ideas for a safer backstop?

EDIT: Think I will try the phonebooks/textbooks in a cardboard box
 
While very few households have a "clearing pipe", I understand a 5 gal pail of sand is a fairly good energy dissipator...
 
Theohazard said:
A casual chamber check...
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That is the definition of the problem. The word "casual".

There should be no such thing as a casual chamber check, or any way of justifying such a thing, with the idea being "I'll check it better before I pull the trigger."

If it is important, it is important enough to do it right. Then you only have to do it once.

IMO, there is no room for "casual" involving gun safety.

(You might ask yourself, sometime, what the purpose of a "casual" chamber check is... :) )
 
dmazur posted
There should be no such thing as a casual chamber check, or any way of justifying such a thing, with the idea being "I'll check it better before I pull the trigger."
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OK, now we're just getting into semantics. By "casual" I mean a check like I always do, all day long; one quick visual inspection of the chamber. I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought. But every time I've checked a firearm like this that turned out to be loaded, you can bet I've noticed and caught it.

But like I've said several times already, when I go to pull the trigger, whether for disassembly or dry firing, I like to check a few extra times to be double and triple sure. What in the world is the harm in that?
 
I suppose it is semantics...and I am only trying to clarify, not criticize.

...I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought.
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Not knowing you personally, this statement bothers me.

As I said earlier, there should be nothing casual about gun safety. Do you really want to do anything with a gun without conscious thought?

Chamber checks performed multiple times a day are perhaps rational, if you have not been carrying the entire period uninterrupted. Each time you holster, a check for loaded status would be prudent.

But if you draw just to check something you already checked that's been under your control the entire time...that's compulsive.

And, compulsive behavior may not harm anyone. But it is generally unnecessary. And, as you pointed out, it results in a kind of complacency about that behavior, which makes you feel you have to do a "real check" before cleaning or dry firing.

All of which is purely my opinion. And probably not worth two cents...

ETA -

I remember another example of "gun safety by habit", which I believe occurred at a gun show.

Bolt-action rifle was involved, and the seller opened the action as is customary before handing it across to potential buyer. Potential buyer closed action, pointed rifle sideways and pulled trigger. Bang. I believe someone was injured as a result.

Apparently the rifle had a faulty extractor and opening the action didn't extract the round in the chamber. Probably the typical Mauser-type action with the chamber buried at least 3/4" up inside the receiver.

So this is why I state "Do it once, do it right." Take the time. Think about what you are doing. Don't ever let repetition or past performance lull you into a posture of complacency.

Now I am aware that the Four Rules provide redundant protection, and he violated Rule Two...but I don't believe this redundant protection should be interpreted as encouraging sloppy behavior in any of the Rules.
 
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dmazur posted
...I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought.

Not knowing you personally, this statement bothers me.
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It appears you're doing your best to pick apart every comment I make and take what I'm saying out of context. Why? Are you still upset that I disagreed with your criticism of people doing multiple chamber checks? Do you honestly not understand what I'm trying to say?

Safety is automatic for me; I check a gun every time I pick it up and every time someone hands it to me. When I say it's not really a conscious thought, I mean it's so natural I don't need to think about doing it; I just do it. But I still notice and remember what I'm doing, and if a round happens to be in the chamber I definitely take notice immediately.

I've been driving in heavy city and highway traffic for most of my life. I've only ever been in one accident and that was when someone ran a traffic sign and sideswiped me. I'm a very safe, defensive driver, but I've been doing it so long and I've become so good at it that I don't need to spend much conscious thought doing it. It's become natural. That doesn't mean I don't pay attention when I drive and it doesn't mean I'm an unsafe driver. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

My gun handling is the same way. If you think that means I'm unsafe with firearms, then there's not much I can say to change your mind. But please stop taking evething I say out of context.
 
pax posted
If you are relying on a chamber check -- careful or casual -- you are unsafe.


Read this!

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/f...r-three-rules/
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Good point, though I hope no one assumed either of us was referring to ONLY using chamber checks to ensure safety; it's engrained in me to always follow ALL safety rules at all times, regardless.

Apparently I've managed to convey the idea that I'm unsafe in handling firearms, when nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe it's less of an issue of me being taken out of context, and more an issue of me doing a poor job of getting my point across...
 
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