A question about kids and guns

M

Miss Demeanors

New member
I have 3 boy cousins, two are almost 13 and the other one is 11. They are basically good kids but recently something has disturbed me. One day when I was at their house, they were showing me their computer and all the games that they have. They were playing that "Doom" game and to be honest it kind of scared me. They were enjoying 'blowing up' strippers, innocent people sitting in a car, ect. I know a game is a game, but the way they were enjoying this violence was giving me the chills. I asked them if they realized that this is just a game for fun and that in real life that is not what firearms are used for. They kinda laughed it off and said yes but I really dont think they realize how dangerous guns can be and that you just dont go around killing people. I had mentioned that game to my Aunt and asked her if she realized what they were playing. She too kinda shrugged it off as it was 'just a game'. These kids have always looked at me as the 'cool' cousin, and I know they look up to me. I just dont know what I can say to them to help them understand the true meaning of guns. I have no problem with the game if they understand its just a game, but some kids want to try it out for real and that worries me. I am really not in a position to teach them about firearms, when I myself am just learning. It seems that the parents really arent taking it to seriously and that also worries me. I know I am not their parent but I feel that seeing that they look up to me, its my obligation to give them some advice about guns and set them on the right track. I just do not know what to say that would get their attention and think about what I am saying. One day in the future, (after I know what the heck I am doing) I would love to take them to a range and practice that way, with mom and dads permission of course, but at what age should they be to do this? What can I teach them at the present time? We have alot of antis in our family and I think if the kids get any advice from them, that is going to steer them in the wrong direction. I just want them to know right from wrong and that guns are not a toy. Any advice???? Geez, I sure hope my daughter will be easier! I am teaching her that guns are not toys, they are not bad, but they are not to be played with, figured I would start early! :) When she gets to the boys age, mom will know her stuff! ;) She will be posting here as Little Demeanors! LOL
 
The ones you have to worry about are the people who play those games and aren't educated about guns. I'm sure I first fired a gun when I was 6.
The computer games aren't whatyou needto worry about - it's peoples warped view of guns through only knowing about them from tv and games.
BTW anyone gotCommand and Conquer Tiberian Sun ? I read it's been released or is that wrong ?
Also anyone got Total Annihilation Kingdoms?
I've got Total Annihilation but not Kingdoms.
 
Miss D,

DOOM didn't have strippers. You're thinking of Duke Nukem. And if you kill innocents in Duke, more aliens appear and kick the player's ass. If you offer money to one of the strippers, she'll shake her pasties at you; should we scream about that too?

It's entirely possible to get through all 3 episodes of Duke without even wounding a single innocent; I've done it literally hundreds of times.

I've played FPS (first-person shooters) since Wolfenstein 3D came out in... '92? How many people have I killed? I gotta tell ya, I'm getting tired of people saying "These games teach our kids to kill!" Sure. And Black Sabbath caused kids to sacrifice babies and smoke pot.

<b>IT'S A GAME, PEOPLE.</b> The determining factor is the PLAYER, not the game. You know, just like with guns. As far as kids being "brainwashed" by games, where the hell are the parents?

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"Taking a long view of history, we may say that
anyone who lays down his arms deserves whatever he gets."
--Jeff Cooper
 
Miss D, you have a tough problem, and honestly, I think it is a problem. I was nearly 18 when I first played one of those games, and it was relly cool. (I still like them). But by then I had experience with shotguns, and understood they were not toys. I believe that these two lack the proper respect for firearms. It is fine to think of Doom as just a game, so long as you do not view it's implications as just a game. Personally, I think that sort of attitude led to Columbine- those two boys did not have respect for life, or for what firearms could do. Whether or not Doom breeds this kind of attitude, I am not sure, but I feel parents need to make sure that if their children play this game they understand what is going on.

Killing is not a game. Do I think they should not be allowed to play the game? Of course not, for I can play those games and remain a well adjusted individual. But what separates me from others that do not make that distinction? If I could answer that in 50 words or less, I would probably be a national hero. My humble advice is to subtly instill a respect for firearms in them. I know you recently started (and we are all proud of you) learning about firearms, so you might no be the best teacher. Plus, when a "cool" cousin starts spouting "lessons" kids can become disinterested. The trick is to make it sound cool. Perhaps a local LEO would be willing to pay a visit? He could tell him about his job, emphasizing how he does NOT want to shoot anyone, and how being a police officer is based on his respect for his sidearm. That might be a cool way to initiate them. Not to be sexist, but two young boys might take this beeter from a male LEO than a female.

After that, I hope you can keep them in line, so that they grow up to be well adjusted, educated men, whether or not they use firearms. One last thing, all growing boys want to shoot, but not necessairly want to learn to shoot. This is where you have to be careful. Make sure they learn respect, not just how to put holes in cans.
my 2 cents.
 
I dont have a problem with the game itself at all. The problem is that they are NOT educated about guns what so ever. I thought Doom was the name, but they were playing a few of them so I really couldnt tell you which one had which in it. I dont care about the strippers either, that doesnt bother me, its the fact that this is the only knowledge of guns that they have. I played one of the games with them, Im not a 'soccer mom' by any means, I am just worried that they are learning about guns through the games.
 
While I'll contend that games are not the problem, methinks 11 and 13 are too young to play such games.

I've been going in circles with a friend who keeps asking if her son (13) should be allowed to see various R-rated movies. When he commented that the violence in Saving Private Ryan "wasn't that bad" I was terribly concerned. The boy in question didn't have the proper context: that the Normanday Invasion was real, horrible, and the SPR images were intended to convey the horror of the situation - NOT portray it as "fun". Some teacher showed Gettysburg in class: when people were blown away by a cannon at close range, the students laughed!...but not when seen again after the teacher explained the horror of the event, for when seen with proper knowledge and understanding, the students cried for this time they understood the horror. Young children don't differentiate fantasy & reality well. My own nephew became very disturbed (temporarily) after playing Commander Keen (a mild Mario Brothers -like game); he did not have the proper "framework" to contain the ideas in.
(Side note: I play _lots_ of Quake (very violent; I just did about 200 "kills" for lunch) and watch plenty of violent movies.)

My concern is that for for virtual violence to be properly "enjoyed", one must have a strong foundation of morals etc. to balance what's seen, and not be too numbed to it at an early age.

Duke Nukem, Doom, Quake, etc. are intended for older teens and adults: people who have developed a context and appreciation for what's happening. There is a proper time to introduce them to such games; 13 isn't it.

Another observation: if they're playing amazingly violent games at 13, what will entertain them at 16? 18? 30? If you're virtually exploding thousands of humanoids (I figure I "fragged" 250,000 monsters _in_one_year_ when 23) at a young age, what will be entertaining 5-10 years later? My own game-playing and movie-watching has gradually developed such that I've reached certain material at 31; I don't think such material should be presented to kids 1/2 or 1/3 that age. I was doing text-adventure games then (for hours and hours and hours).

13? 11? Too early. They should be solving the intricate puzzles of Mario Brothers or suchlike milder games.

Some will say there's no practical fallout from violent games at early ages. I then challenge them to explain why kids are more violent at younger ages as the years pass. Surely, violent TV, movies, and games have some influence that cannot be dismissed.

13? 11? They should be learning & experiencing fun "cute" things: baseball, cartoons, mild horseplay, etc.; not "the thrill of the kill". Not yet. Let them learn that "joy" later.
 
I also think they are a bit too young to be playing games like that unsupervised. With no parental guidence to separate fiction from reality you are leaving the decision up to a child. There was a thread from a former military officer from Jonesboro, Ar. who equates the effect of the desenitization of video games to the effect of computerized simulators used by the armed forces to train soldiers. These simulators allow the soldiers to 'kill' a virtual enemy and it is designed as an effective, low cost, training environment but also has the effect of allow the soldier on the battlefield to hit the targets without regarding them as human. Most people have a natural aversion to the taking of another human life and that must be overcome in battle. The games also do not seem to promote safe gun handlin either, which is the reason why my son never had any toy guns. He had a real one from the age of six, but I did not want there to be anything that might slow a safe thought process when handling real firearms.

[This message has been edited by Jeff OTMG (edited August 31, 1999).]
 
You are in a tight situation and I will try to give as honest opinion as what to do. First off, just as you have stated the kids need to realize its just a game, and they probaly do realize the difference between fantasy and reality, that is if thier parents have instilled morals in them. If they have had a decent upbring they should be all right, even I play games such as doom every now and then.

Now, about teaching them firearms safety. First of all why havent their parents not taught them yet. Kids need to learn and respect the power of firearms as soon as possible. I've been around guns all of my life. Even before I was able to pick up a gun my father taught me how to safely operate all the firearms we had. He showed me all the safety rules. Always stress safety first. The the kids will not joke around with guns when taught proper safety. Before you take them to the range teach them SAFETY. If not enroll them in an instruction course and get a firearms instructor who will strike the fear of GOD in them when it comes to gun safety. After instilling proper safety methods in them let the shoot. If the parents are antis then also introduce them to the world of shooting, you might just change their minds.
 
I have a problem with some games that children play. Parents do need to monitor and supervise.You cant let them go wild on games and then act surprised when they act violently.
My brother has a son and a daughter. He also has many, many guns and has always had them all over his house. They explained the guns to the children and had family rules about their use etc. The "kids" are 35 and 34, responsible adults and big-time gun owners.
Does it work for everybody? I think you have to start early.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
I agree with Solo.... there's nothing like introducing a kid of 11-13 to proper firearms instruction. Maybe you could join them and take the NRA hunters safety course together. You might even get the instructor to do a demonstration for them.... such as shooting a milk carton full of water and telling them that this could be your head. Again, for them as for you, the proper respect and safe handling of firearms comes from knowledge.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
My oldest son thought video games were the coolest thing around until he shot his first stale cookie with a .22. We've got him on the road to safe habits and the knowledge of what can happen, as well as teaching him the idea that most so-called "accidents" are, in reality, mistakes. Never know what they'll encounter at a friends' house...

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy; it's just what works for us.

My wife and I have two sons, ages 7 and 3. We limit their tv and nintendo; they get to do both, just not alot. My oldest isn't allowed to see a lot of the things his friends see (wrestling, pg13 movies, some video games, etc.). Although I take my 7 year old shooting (one-shot .22s), and will allow him to accompany my wife and I deer hunting this season, I don't let him play any "kill or be killed" video games, from Goldeneye on up. For someone his age, I regard those things as a complete waste of his time, and he's at the point where he'd rather (under my supervision of course) shoot his bow, a pellet gun, or the real thing anyway. Otherwise, he needs to be outside climbing trees, helping with chores, playing kickball, reading books, etc.
 
Good LORD! What *are* you folks doing to your children? Making them climb trees, run in the yard, and help <gasp!> around the house with chores?!?

If you don't watch out, CPS is going to sen their SWAT team out to get you... :)
 
As a member of the first generation to be brought up on video games (Pong, anyone?), I
really can't see the "link" between animated graphics on a CRT and real violence. With
silicon avatars I've done tremendous amounts of virtual violence, from early tame
environments like the "Adventure" text-based game to full-scale orbital bombardments that annihilated entire sentient races along with their planet's ecology. Has this made me a
homicidal killer?

I started shooting at age 10, and had my own firearms since I was 17. I collect military and military-style arms and munitions. I've seen scores of Hollywood's "action" movies, which range mostly from bad to entirely silly. I've played the computer games that the media rails against, like "DOOM", "Duke Nukem" (all 3 versions), and "Grand Theft Auto". I've even played those flight simulators, perhaps even the ones that "made" that Japanese guy kill the 747 pilot so he could fly an airplane (hmm, I just go pay somebody to fly, odd...). Again, curiously, I don't seem to be a homicidal killer.

I'm afraid these synthetic forms violence don't have much of an effect on me. I remember when I went to see "Jurassic Park" at the theater, and an elderly woman sitting next to me said after the movie "You didn't jump once!", in a somewhat startled tone. It's just a movie. I know which shots are puppets and which are CG work. I've seen real
tyrannosaurs and velociraptors, at least what's left of them. I know that liberties from the truth are taken in the name of "entertainment". Like the fact that velociraptor's skull was only 9 inches long, about the size of my Labrador retriever's noggin and the remarkably silly scene showing the excavation in a thoroughly improbably manner of a fully-articulated, completely intact (even the tail!) dromaeosaurid.

The point being that something like "True Lies" isn't a primer on fighting global terrorism any more than playing "Dungeons and Dragons" makes one adept at swordplay, or
"DOOM" is realistic training for urban combat. I'd like to see anyone with "2% health" sprint across a room and jump across a chasm, dispatching bad guys all the way. The gap between real and fiction is still large, although technology may someday close it to make reality and fantasy indistinguishable, à la the "jacking in" of Gibson's "cyberpunk" novels. Perhaps, should this come to pass, then I will see more of a moral dilemma in such entertainment. I have seen real violence, not much, but some. Pixelated pseudo-blood of made-up aliens lacks shocking power for me. It isn't real. A teenage girl dead in a pool of her own blood after being ejected through the rear window of a Camero that hit a bridge abutment is all too real for me. War Department films only recently released of Marines on Iwo Jima in full color playing with the dismembered body parts of dead Japanese, smiling cheerfully, is disturbing to me. An autopsy of a guy killed by a knife wound to the liver just about made me pass out (cracking the chest cavity got to me). It's not nice having your bath interrupted by shotgun blasts and the neighbor's car exploding. But computer games?

Miss Demeanors, I would ask that you try to interest your cousins parents in reviewing a
firearms safety program like the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program with their children. It
apparently isn't judgmental on firearms while being effective. I saw a rather surprising
report on television (Dateline, I think) once that exposed kids to a deactivated handgun
right after a public school demonstration on "firearms avoidance". One kid told the others
to stay away, and went to get the teacher. The kid cited the "stop, don't touch, tell an
adult" credo from the "Eddie" video he had seen privately. Several of the parents watching the tape said they told their children guns were bad, probably like they told them cigarettes, alcohol, and more illicit drugs are bad. We clearly know you can just say that something's bad, and they'll never touch the stuff, right? However, these were younger children than your cousins. If these materials seem too childish for early or pre-teens, I would suggest you look into hunter safety program that may be offered for nominal fees by your state. These programs have good firearms safety messages, and may offer live fire experiences as well, keeping the attention of older kids.

Notes on gaming...
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>rabbit assassin: Yeah, Tiberian Sun is out. Westwood sent me a card and Best Buy had
an ad for it in the paper here. Unfortunately [sniff, sob], my ancient computer won't run
it...or any other new game, for that matter.

<LI>Coinneach: And here I was thinking I was the only one who played DN3D without taking out non-combatants. Anyone remember the opening sequence that had Duke shooting a smiley-face in his target on the range? Impressive for a guy whose weapons have no sights!
</UL>

[Grr...keep getting messed up lines with "cut-and-paste"]

[This message has been edited more than once by RepublicThunderbolt (edited August 31, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by RepublicThunderbolt (edited August 31, 1999).]
 
I've gotta agree with the crowd that say's modern video games and violent movies television have no affect on our children.

For cryin' out loud! This type of thing is totally impossible! There is no way in hell that a young, know nothin' child's mind could possibly be influenced in any way by anything. Everything they learn is filtered properly in their mind and only good, wholesome things are retained in their minds for their future wholesome, adult development. Take television or movies. They are all good. We should let our children see everything and anything they want because it has no effect. Their minds are just too developed for any bad things to happen or for them to develop any bad ideas as a result of what they see, hear or read. Hell! All our children want to do is smoke pot, do drugs, join gangs, peirce their ears, tongues, belly buttons, color their hair purple, etc, etc. Hey! Our children aren't influenced in any way and I resent any one saying they are! Our children are too smart to be effected by anything.
 
Miss D: I let my son feel and fondle a Government Model .45ACP at about age four. I told him that when HE though he was big enough to shoot it, away we'd go. Also, any time he wanted to feel and fondle it again, just holler...

Having taken the mystique out of it, he had only minor interest.

I started him on a BB gun at around age six or seven. His first Christmas present lasted three months before he got careless; I wrapped it around a tree. It was replaced on his April birthday, with no further problems.

Previous posters have offered some good advice: With the parents' permission, take them to a range, with an experienced shooter who is fairly good as a teacher. After all the safety stuff, shoot plastic bottles of water and/or a tomato or two. This will sure let them realize that since a human body is mostly water, "accidents" can be very messy.

I had the advantage of living on a ranch, so my son watched me field dress deer, and turn Bambi into barbecue. I autopsied the bullet path for him a time or two, as explanation of what happens.

Insofar as the games and TV programming, all I know is that either TV is a powerful teaching tool or it isn't. If it isn't, all those advertisers have wasted billions of dollars. And there are messages subliminally inherent in any story line far beyond what any writer intended...

FWIW, Art
 
Miss D,

I think you're right to have a red flag up over the boy's computer games.

Not because of the games or their contents, but because boys that age are in their formative, wonder years. They should be thinking, discovering, wandering, and learning at that stage in life.

Formative years spent in being "entertained" by games or TV cannot bode well for their futures. When will they then later find the time to explore the universe of possibilities out there and develop an independent intellect? Or will they ever afterwards expect to be forever entertained?

Newton, Einstein and DaVinci weren't entertained by "kapowing" video games, they were entertained by challenging their minds, by thought. They were not jaded.

Raising your little gal isn't the only challenge you have in front of you, our thinking friend. Those boys need to learn to think, too. Seems as if you're "it".

Best of luck.
 
I have no children so i have to look back at what my parents did for me, my mother was a meat cutter who grew up on a farm doing their own butchering and my father an avid hunter earlier in his life, my father started me with a pistol which I still own, a little pocket 32acp browning. he would make me strip and dismantle it under his eye. when the gun was shot it was my job to clean it, just like it was my job to shine his shoes and take out the trash. I no longer shine shoes and hate to take out the trash but I enjoy firearms evening cleaning them---to some extent. My paternal grandfather would take me in the back yard and pull out a little 22 smith revolver from his right front pockett and let me shoot into the ground at a flower pot, i never broke that pot, years later it turned out that I was shooting blanks...he got a kick out of it, and I became more determined to hit that pot.....lol.....Id show em the guns let em touch em and wipe em off with a soft cloth and then put em away., for awhile...fubsy.
 
shortcut:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Newton, Einstein and DaVinci weren't entertained by "kapowing" video games, they were entertained by challenging their minds, by thought. They were not jaded[/quote]
Umm, DaVinci, (who by the way may have been the smartest human being to have ever lived, IMHO) was frequntly entertained by young boys.If DaVinci were alive today, he would undoubtedly be in prison for multiple sexual offences. Leo was not a nice person.

MissD: Boy am I glad you are on our side!

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http:/www.ofcc.net
 
I think the fear here is desensitization. I don't let my oldest play with violent video games because he has better things to do. If he does have the rare priveldge of playing with his Sony PS, he has a library of somewhat educational, non-violent games to choose from. We limit the amount of time he spends on these electronic stimulators becuase his father uses it as a babysitter when he is visisting with him. I see no need to do the same.

The youngest (2.5) has caught scenes from Thin Red Line, The Sopranos, etc,... he's attended gun shows with us, say's "oh, ouchie momma" when he points to a gun. He also builds guns out of leggos, and we only scold him when he points his lethal leggo's at people. He shoots the "bad guys" on TV, he knocks over his towers, and stuff like that. We attend military ceremonies and the "booms" shake his little body, he is respectful at a very early age.

Kids can be influenced by anything if parents dont guide them properly. There was that incident of a pair of siblings who were playing WWW and the little brother was strangled and killed. The mother had no problem with the kids watching WWW because it wasn't "real". I doubt this mother ever told the kids that these professionals practiced how to keep it safe.

I think that watching the testimony of our president & his mistress on TV was more damaging to a young mind (even with parental guidance) than alot of the violent movies or video games... but all should be watched with caution.

Geri Weaver

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BlackHawk Authorized Dealer (BAD) - "Better than catalog" prices & free shipping http://www.geardup.com/gearedup.htm
 
Thanks for all the ideas, I will take them all into consideration. Sorry, I didnt mean to turn this into a discussion about video games. If they were my kids they wouldnt being playing those games just yet. Like alot of you said above, its the distinction between reality and fantasy. I'm sure they do have some of that, but you just never know what goes on in kids heads. Like I said, they have no proper knowledge of firearms, that is what worries me. God forbid any of these schools should teach such an evil thing. I think that would be a great 'added' course in schools, to teach kids firearm safety. They teach them all about safety with strangers, fires, ect. , yet nothing with firearms. They don't have to take them for a field trip to shoot, but at least establish respect for firearms in these kids. They can teach them to have respect for eachother and adults, why not guns? I wouldnt mind one bit if my daughter had an Eagle Eddie course in Kindergarten, why not start them off early?
My cousins have played all the mind thinking puzzle video games, they did that when they were 6, it wore off. I know those games they play have a rating on it and I believe its 17. I had told my Aunt that and she said they see it anyways from the other kids so why not just let them play it, yet she doesnt supervise it. Its not my kids but I really dont agree with that at all. I know they are good kids, but at that age your mind is very curious. Kids that are learning about guns in this manner are most likely the type to bring a gun to school or worse. I will bet that of all the school shootings that have happened, not one of those kids were brought up around or taught about firearms. Alot of you said your kids were able to touch guns, try guns, and were taught to respect guns at an early age, to me , that is defintley the way to go about it. It kills the curiousity, therfore they move on to something else. So many wonder how could these children come to school and just start killing ? In my opinion that is because they were sheltered from guns, had no knowledge besides what they see on the games and TV, and most of all no parental supervision. Thats why I think its important for my Aunt to start supervising these games. I had told the kids what I had seen so many years ago, I even got into the bloody details, thinking maybe that would make them think twice about how 'cool' it is to see someones head get blown off. It really didnt have any effect on them, and in an odd sense they thought it was funny. Funny? Thats when the red flag went up. If you can find any laughing matter in that story, there is a problem. I can talk to my Aunt till I am blue in the face, and she will not change anything. Thats why I figured maybe I can help in some slim way. I dont know all that much, but I sure do know that guns are not a toy and they are something to be respected. Maybe I will look into those courses for saftey. If I find something around here, I will mention it to my Aunt, and maybe get it for them for their birthdays, if thats ok with her. Until then, all I can really do is just keep talking to them and try and share what I have learned with them. Maybe I will also call a local police dept and see if I can set something up where I could take the kids in and the LEO could talk to them. I watch them alot so that might not be a bad idea, at least it cant hurt right? As for the Eagle Eddie video, I think they may be too old for it, I really havent seen it, BUT it would be a good thing for my little girl and my little niece. How do I get one of those anyways? Do I have to join the NRA to get one? (Me, an NRA member? :))
 
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