A question about a traffic stop

You just gotta get to know them a little. The last time I got pulled over I hadn't talked to the guy in probably 18 months.

I think we stood there and talked half his shift.:) Slow night, which is good in that business.
 
How do come up with this? How do you think officers obtain their information; prior to and after the initial stop?
All the LEO has to do in VA is run the plates before they even exit their cruiser...
 
Not to insult you Creature, but you just given an "uninformed" answer, but exactly what I expected you to say.

I type with one finger at a time, so sorry for short answers. I am going to learn the keyboard starting this week; partly do to the time I have spent on this forum , the past few months.

I will get back to you and anybody else interested ,soon, with an insight on vehicle stops and CCW. I have wanted to contribute something to the forum for a while. I have learned so much from people here that I feel I owe something in return. I don't hunt and my knowledge of firearms is surpassed by many on this forum. I can though, give you(others) insight into interacting with police while armed.

All for now, Friend.
 
Not to insult you Creature, but you just given an "uninformed" answer, but exactly what I expected you to say.
How is that uninformed? Its totally true, they just run your plate on their on board computer and if the vehicle is registered in your name and you have a CCW, it will show it... Therefore, if they run your plate, which they do, then they will know you have a CCW. (my buddy is a cop in VA)

Now, if I was a cop, if I saw someone had a CCW permit, i'd be breathing a sigh of relief. And if someone told me they had a gun on them, i'd again breath a sigh of relief... who freakin tells a cop they have a gun if they're going to do something bad with it? Thats why some cops annoy me, and why I never tell them im carrying unless they ask. When I got pulled over, it was dome lights on, wallet out with license and registration in hand and hands at 2 and 10 at all times. No fuss no muss and comment from the cop.
 
This is the other side of a topic being discussed in another thread.

The way you described the incident, I believe the officer secured a firearm that was in your immediate control. Officers are allowed more leeway when taking action for the purpose of officer safety.

If your Fourth Amendment rights were violated in the process, the only caveat to the officer's actions would be that any evidence of a crime found might become inadmissible in court. However, there is a chance that if they "officer safety" steps taken were legal or supported by case law, then evidence found as a result may be admissible.

The Supreme Court has allowed evidence before that was obtained while ensuring officer safety, so long as the actions taken are reasonable.

All in all, there was nothing wrong with what you described. The other thread though describes a lengthy search and seizure for the purposes of investigating possible criminal activity. That is different, and illegal if here is no probable cause. This officer just took a reasonable step to remove at least one possible way of getting killed on a traffic stop.
 
I really dislike the Terry rubric with respect to CCW. To me, it basically implies that "gun = criminal." Yes, there must be reasonable suspicion for the officer to search the stopped citizen. And of course officers should be aware of weapons when they are facing a potential criminal.

But beyond that it gets clumsy. Everyone becomes a potential criminal, and all guns the implement. From a practical standpoint, it's erosive to the 2A, though perhaps necessarily as I can't articulate a better framework that preserves the officers' interests. Still, we (shooters) found ourselves upon the knowledge that guns don't make the criminal, and that laws and procedures will be ignored by the criminal. Those who do not carry arms illegally should be given some presumption that they do not do other things illegally, either. Of course this creates a contradiction when one is stopped for illegally speeding, but I'd like to think that we can draw a line between speeding and armed assault.

We know guns aren't the problem, but accept a standard by which guns are an excuse to look for problems. Some of the stories here really suggest this has given rise to some perverted thinking. If an officer has to say "Don't pick up the gun until I'm out of range," he either needs to decide if he's dealing with a psychopath (and thus should not return the weapon at all), or if he needs a career that's less involved with firearms.
 
How is that uninformed? Its totally true, they just run your plate on their on board computer and if the vehicle is registered in your name and you have a CCW, it will show it... Therefore, if they run your plate, which they do, then they will know you have a CCW. (my buddy is a cop in VA)

Hirlau thinks that things only work the way he is familiar with there in FL...

Okay, Hirlau..."inform" us. Tell us how us how things work here in VA.
 
Quote: "(my buddy is a cop in VA)"


Unfortunately, this statement sums up what most people base their knowledge of police practice and procedure on.

Yes, Creature, I will give you my 2 cents on this topic, in time; with a thread devoted to it.
 
Unfortunately, this statement sums up what most people base their knowledge of police practice and procedure on.
What, fact? Seems like a good way to go for me...

Thats like saying I know nothing about engineering because I only heard it from my engineering professors... :rolleyes:
 
I really dislike the Terry rubric with respect to CCW

Terry doesn't deal with CCW, it is reasonable suspicion incident to street stop.

For a arrest subsequent to a street stop you have to have an articulable reason for stopping said offender.

The standard is less than probable cause.
 
Top court clips police authority to search cars

Supreme Court limits warrantless police searches to instances when an officer or evidence is in danger.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0422/p02s01-usju.html

Washington - Ending a decades-long trend favoring law enforcement, the US Supreme Court has moved to restrict the ability of police to conduct open-ended searches of automobiles during traffic stops.

In a 5 to 4 decision announced Tuesday, the nation's highest court ruled that the Fourth Amendment does not permit police to conduct a warrantless search of a car unless the search is immediately necessary to safeguard the arresting officer's safety or to prevent the concealment or destruction of evidence.

The decision means that police cannot rely on a mere traffic violation to authorize a general search for guns, drugs, or other contraband. Such searches created "a serious and recurring threat to the privacy of countless individuals," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in the majority opinion.

"The character of that threat implicates the central concern underlying the Fourth Amendment – the concern about giving police officers unbridled discretion to rummage at will among a person's private effects."

The ruling in Arizona v. Gant narrows a 28-year-old rule that had authorized law enforcement officials to conduct car searches without a warrant during traffic stops. In a subsequent decision, the high court expanded that rule to allow searches without a warrant even after a motorist was being held securely in police custody.

Now, police will have new rules to follow. Justice Stevens said the location of the arrested person is important. If that person is still "within reaching distance of the passenger compartment" – in other words, able to potentially disturb evidence or grab a weapon – police can conduct a warrantless search, he wrote. The majority justices said the justification for a warrantless automobile search disappears once the motorist has been handcuffed and placed safely in a patrol car. After that, police must obtain a court-authorized search warrant from a neutral judge.

Stevens added that a warrantless search would also be justified "when it is reasonable to believe the vehicle contains evidence of the offense of arrest."

The ruling is expected to require retraining at police agencies across the country.

In a dissent, Justice Samuel Alito said the high court's new rule may endanger arresting police officers. He said it will also confuse law enforcement officials and judges "for some time to come."

Justice Alito added: "The court's decision will cause the suppression of evidence gathered in many searches carried out in good faith reliance on well-settled case law."

Tuesday's decision stems from the August 1999 arrest of Rodney Gant by the Tucson Police Department. Officers were investigating suspected drug activity at a house in Tucson. They had encountered Mr. Gant at the house earlier in the day.

A records search revealed an outstanding warrant for Gant's arrest for failing to appear on a charge of driving with a suspended license. That evening, Gant was arrested on the outstanding warrant shortly after he parked and exited his car near the house.

Once arrested, Gant was handcuffed and placed in the backseat of a patrol car. The police then searched Gant's car, where they found cocaine and a handgun.

Gant was charged with possession of cocaine for sale and possession of drug paraphernalia.

At trial, Gant's lawyer moved to suppress the evidence, arguing that police had conducted an unreasonable search of his car by failing to first obtain a search warrant or Gant's permission. Prosecutors argued that the case triggered an exception to the warrant requirement. Because Gant had only just exited the car, they said, police were entitled to search the vehicle in connection with his arrest.

The trial court upheld the search. Gant was convicted and sentenced to a three-year prison term.

The Arizona Court of Appeals and the Arizona Supreme Court both ruled that police violated Gant's Fourth Amendment privacy rights by conducting the warrantless search of his car.

They ordered the seized evidence suppressed. The courts reasoned that at the time of his arrest, Gant was not in close proximity to his car, so police officers had no reason to initiate an immediate search of the car.

Joining Stevens in the majority were Justices Antonin Scalia, David Souter, Clarence Thomas, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

In addition to Alito, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Anthony Kennedy and Stephen Breyer dissented.
 
"It is not unheard of for LEOs to start fishing."

Unheard of? It is expected. A LEO who isn't "fishing" isn't doing his job to the fullest. It should be something good LEOs do as a matter of course. Which has little if anything to do with the thread's topic.

As for the thread's topic, it is allowable to separate firearms from individuals during enforcement actions. Some folks do so as a matter of course; i.e. all individuals are always separated from their firearms. It is allowable, for the reasons already cited.
 
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Wagonman said:
Terry doesn't deal with CCW, it is reasonable suspicion incident to street stop.

For a arrest subsequent to a street stop you have to have an articulable reason for stopping said offender.

The standard is less than probable cause.

I'm not much of a crim pro buff but I'm with you on that much. My point being, where does the officer's discretion vest with respect to CCW in view of the law on interactions under stop-and-frisk or searches incident to traffic stops? I imagine some CCW statutes must have contemplated this, but the stories here suggest there is a wide variety of good and not-so-good behavior being executed pursuant to justifications that are ambiguous at best.

I also just want to reiterate my peripheral point that it's distressing for so much legal justification relating to searching "bad guys" is grounded in the possible presence of weapons. In a free society where people may carry weapons, it seems odd that a weapon's mere existence would call for its removal from the carrier. While police must at times "trust no one" for their own safety, I don't think this should legitimize the abrogation of a law-abiding citizen's rights.
 
When i lived in Ks I got pulled over by a Pratt county sheriffs deputy for a head light out. Im 10 miles from anything and when he pulled me over I informed him I have a gun in the car because I bought it before I went to work that day. He goes ok what kind. I told him and his response was. !@#hole I wanted to buy that. (it was an H&K VP70Z from 1984) Long story short we went a few miles down a dirt road to his house and went target shooting at 1 am while he was on duty.
 
Top court clips police authority to search cars
Supreme Court limits warrantless police searches to instances when an officer or evidence is in danger.

I suggest you take some time to read the whole opinion. That isn't what it says, but what do you expect from journalists? There are about 5 or 6 exceptions related to a stop that are intact and they are specifically discussed near the end of the majority opinion. It only limited the sweep associated with an arrest, which was always an odd duck imo.
 
...the kicker is LEO's are supposed to NOT treat you like the BG from the get-go for a simple traffic stop.

Most won't, at least in my experience. It may be different in NJ or Kali or some other gungrabber socialist republic.

There are three factors that can change affect that though:

1. The cop- they come in good and bad versions in probably roughly the same proporation as the general populace.

2. You- a lot of what the cop is doing is trying to read your body language and responses. They may respond to a negative attitude, but mostly they are looking for things amiss, excessive nervousness, stories that don't make sense, etc.

3. The situation- where, when, and for what reason you were stopped will affect the situation greatly.
 
I also just want to reiterate my peripheral point that it's distressing for so much legal justification relating to searching "bad guys" is grounded in the possible presence of weapons. In a free society where people may carry weapons, it seems odd that a weapon's mere existence would call for its removal from the carrier. While police must at times "trust no one" for their own safety, I don't think this should legitimize the abrogation of a law-abiding citizen's rights

I cannot be considered an expert as I work in the Peoples republic of Chicago and anyone with a weapon is breaking the law.

That said, I would think that in a CCW jurisdiction having a legit CCW would not be a precursor to a "Terry" search.

I have wondered how Coppers handle CCWs.
 
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