A question 4 FUD: Pay attention y'all!

K

KaMaKaZe

New member
FUD,

Several times I have heard you mention how you carry concealed. Well, thats great and everything.. but you discuss a few things that puzzle me. In different posts (I'm not going to point them out, you'll understand) you mention concealed carry or deep concealment.

I have several questions concerning your use of deep concealment.

I am aware that you use a belly band for most carry situations (or so I suspect). However, where do you draw the line between just regular concealment and deep concealment?

I often carry in an in-pants style holster for any given firearm, under an untucked shirt. If I wish to dress nicely.. most of my shorts/pants have deep enough pockets that allow me to carry my new and light Taurus m85. :)

Back to the point -- you mention deep concealment. Is this the use of the belly band? I mean, how deep is deep?
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Do you wear this thing all day (@ the office)? Is it uncomfortable? Also, if you consider it to be deep, how do you plan on reaching it in a hurry? Is it obstructed in any manner?

In all seriousness.. I'm just curious.

Glad to hear you got back okay.
council.gif


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

[This message has been edited by KaMaKaZe (edited August 30, 2000).]
 
"Deep" concealment sounds not only uncomfortable but also possibly painful. :eek: Ye-ouch!

Psst ... KaMaKaZe, if FUD tells you the secret of deep concealment, he might have to then kill you. ;)
 
KaMaKaZe, Good morning -- you're sure an early bird. I may not be using the term "deep concealment" 100% correct but this is what I mean when I make reference to "deep concealment" (others are free to provide a better definition and/or other terms for me to use and I'll stand corrected in the future) ...

When I go into the office, I have to wear dress pants ( the kind that come with a business suit) which are not baggy, a tucked in shirt and tie. A suit jacket would be appropriate but since temps never get out of the 80's here in southern Florida (meaning, going into the 70's or below -- they very frequently go above the 80's), in the year+ that I've been here, I've never worn a jacket to the office.

Under these conditions, a regular concealment holster is out of the question. Additionally, with this mode of dress, things in the pocket "print". My wallet prints. My keys "print". A gun, no matter how small, will "print" ... therefore, the need for deep concealment!

What has worked for me under these conditions is an Kahr MK9 worn in an inside the waist belly band on my weak side in a cross draw position. The barrel/slide of the gun runs along my leg and is concealed by other items in the pocket while the grip of the gun runs along my waist line and is concealed by my belt.

Access time is slower than from less deep concealment methods of carry but the options are either a little slower access time or no gun. Under these conditions, the slightly longer access time is acceptable when you consider the trade-off is to have no gun at all.

The belly band that I carry is only 3-inches wide instead of 4 which makes it perfect for the MK9 and it isn't uncomfortable. The 4-inch one sometimes can get a little bit hot. The only drawback is that the weight of the MK9 requires a few adjustments throughout the day to keep it in place.

Hope this helps. Believe it or not, I started answering this questions at around 8:30am but since I was out of the office (and on the road) yesterday, I got frequent interruptions and am only finishing it now.

Let's see? Did I cover all of your questions? I draw the line between concealment & deep concealment when I don't/can't wear a jacket and have to have a tucked in shirt (dress pants usually complicates things even further).

At the office I do wear it all day. Since I wear the 3-inch model, it really isn't uncomfortable but does require adjustments from time to time.

Where I have it positioned (see above) it isn't obstructed in any way but getting to the gun in a hurry is slowed down because of where and how I carry. I do practise quick draws with it but my access time still isn't as good as with a less deep concealment method of carry. While this is a liability if quick access is required, the only other option is not to be armed which is even more of a liability. Regards, FUD.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 30, 2000).]
 
Well darnit.

I was hoping that you would say that it was uncomfortable. I don't think my dressing habits from time to time allow me to carry concealed. Since I'm not to keen on sweating to death in Atlanta-inner-city-asphalt-heat.. I'd probably rather take my chances most times than swelter in uncomfortable clothing to conceal a firearm. Then again, I have been thinking of ways on how to get around it. I have yet to come up with a method of concealed carry for the office that I am agreeable with. I would keep in locked in the desk, but since someone else in the office is required to keep a copy of the keys to everyone's desks/offices.. I don't think I'll try it -- just in case.

At any rate, I suppose I'm in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. *sigh*

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

As seen in Atlanta's AJC, The Vent: "Let it be known that in this great metropolitan area that you might be able to get away with murder, but you'd better not bash a mailbox."
 
KaMaKaz....how bout one of those little NAA .22mags for carry...like when you are in shorts or suit and regular carry is unsafe or unavailable?

[[I'm looking at one after I clear some other bills out.]]
 
I used to carry mod 36 2" in crotch holster for those days when things had already gone wrong. Pleated and cuffed trousers were in then and that helped. Another member carried a full size gvt .45 in ankle holster, he was a big un tho. Velcro seam on the inside of the trouser leg, all the way to the knee makes access fast whether sitting or kneeling.

Have a ladies trench coat for those nippy days, nobody notices that it opens the wrong way and it allows FAST access for right handed cross draw.

In the Philippines, when goin formal, the barong tagalog presented a problem, could see anything through it....hence ankle holster became prime carry.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Satanta:
KaMaKaz....how bout one of those little NAA .22mags for carry...like when you are in shorts or suit and regular carry is unsafe or unavailable?

[[I'm looking at one after I clear some other bills out.]][/quote]

Even though they look neat, I don't think I could hit the broad side of a barn.. if I was locked inside of it!! I'd rather have something a tad bit better.. but ya know. Actually, my dad has what he affectionately refers to as a "mouse gun", which is a Beretta Jetfire .25 (or is it a Tomcat?). He almost always carries that along with whatever other gun (usually a Springfield 1911a1). I'm thinkin' about pickin' one up. But I kinda like that Taurus m85. hmm..


------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

As seen in Atlanta's AJC, The Vent: "Let it be known that in this great metropolitan area that you might be able to get away with murder, but you'd better not bash a mailbox."
 
Yes KaMaKaZe, the Taurus 85 is indeed a nice gun and doesn't buy you much over a Kahr MK9 as far as size is concerned (the MK9 does shoot a more powerful round in a slightly smaller package and holds 7 instead of 5 -- but the size difference between the two is not that great). For even deeper concealment, have you considered the NAA Guardian in .32ACP? It's the same size as most .25's and it's a true DAO pistol with concealed but external hammer and it has a repeat striker capability (both features which I wish existed on the MK9)
 
I can attest to not being able to hit the broad side of a barn with the NAA mini. But I still love mine. It is one of those rare examples of getting more than you paid for. I don't use it for CCW or anything else for that matter. I bought it as a toy. I also have an American Derringer .44 mag. that I do ocassionally drop in a pocket but only as a back up. Never as a primary weapon. It is not more accurate than the mini.
KaMaKaZe, it sounds like you are a candidate for either a belly band such as what FUD wears or one of mine which is five inches wide. Mine do get hot but offer the advantage of being able to carry in any position on the torso without the need for adjustment and can carry larger guns than the belly band.
I always dress in dress slacks and a dress or western style shirt. For years I wore a sport jacket regardless of weather with a IWB under it. In summer heat such as we are experiencing now it was obvious to any "gun person" that I was carrying.
 
FUD, you say, "The barrel/slide of the gun runs along my leg and is concealed by other items in the pocket while the grip of the gun runs along my waist line and is concealed by my belt.

I've read this several times, and you gotta be the funniest-shaped human-being I know! Or 4'-6"...

It starts off sounding like ya gotta unzip for access, and finishes up sounding like you wear shirts with snaps.

Hmmm. Post a picture?

:), Art
 
Art, I don't have a digital camera (or easy access to a scanner) or I would be posting a lot of photos here on TFL -- I guess you can count your lucky stars on that one.

Let me try to explain if I was unclear. The gun is postioned just to the right (my right) of my left hip. The barrel/slide runs down the outside of my left leg -- sort of in front but slightly to the side. The grib of the gun runs along my waist toward the belly button. If a LEO were to pat me down, he would feel the gun when he touched my left front pants pocket.

To draw the weapon, the left hand pulls that portion of the shirt out of the pants and pulls outward (forward and away from the body) on the waist/belt. At the same time, the right hand draws the gun.

This obviously isn't the quickest way of doing it and there's a liability because two hands are required but the trade-off is that I go unarmed.
 
small of the crack carry is very popular with plumbers and other workman.. since that part of trhe body is always exposed ;)
 
Try a fanny pack/gun bag?
It gets hot here too (AZ), and we use them a lot for concealed carry. They even work with shorts, when an ankle holster would not.
They are reasonably fast, and very comfortable. They are also easy to ditch and don quickly if/when need be. One Fastex buckle, and off you go.
Plus, you can carry your palm pilot and other bulky crap around without stretching out your pockets.
 
KaMaKaZe, For your Taurus 85, I would recommend the four inch model from Action-Direct because the three-inch model does not hold it in place very well plus the magazine pounch is just the right size to hold spare ammo for the 85 in a speed strip since the speed strip does not fit well in the three inch model -- I speak from personal experience on this. FUD.

By the way, you seem to be becoming our resident smiley expert here on TFL. Can you find me an ANIMATED smiley with a raincloud over his head? I want to use it as my sign-off image. I already found a smiley with a rain cloud but it isn't animated. Thanks.
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[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 31, 2000).]
 
FUD. Try a P-32 with the belt clip. Clip it to your slacks behind the belt buckle to the right of the button. Jam it leftward up against the slacks button and rotate the P-32 grip downward so that the end of the belt clip is hidden under the zipper flap. I normally use belt buckles that are about 3 X 2 inches and more so they cover the rest. However, a normal belt buckle will work as well. I do not tuck the shirt in tightly, but let it "fluff" just enough to cover the top edge of the P-32 behind the belt buckle as insurance.

NO body has "made" me, including my wife. And she knows where it is. She just can't SEE it.

Of course, the ankle holster from Action Direct is great with the P-32 also. If you practice, you can use regular slacks without having to modify them. It just isn't as fast as the belt clip. As to the P-32, I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of 7+1 Fiocchi FMJ's. You can even keep a spare mag in your shirt pocket.
 
Just to touch up on a few things here..

I'm not gonna quote y'all, or post names cuz y'all know who you are..

At any rate.. I am EXTREMELY partial to revolvers which would explain my interest in the Taurus m85. That and an extremely good price. :D I believe I paid $230 for it. I have considered the following for alternatives for a "slimmer" style of carry:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Beretta Tomcat in .32 acp
<LI> Beretta Bobcat in .22
<LI> Beretta Jetfire in .25 acp (..know someone who owns one and I enjoy shooting it)
<LI> NAA Guardian in .32 acp (friend owns one and its okay)
<LI> Walther PPK in .380 (..shot one regularly, but don't care much for it)
<LI> Khar MK9 in 9mm (been following that since it was released)
<LI> Kel-Tec in 9mm (I think)
<LI> a few other automatics.. on a larger scale.
</UL>

Also.. I don't think the belly band would be an appropriate method of carry. I'm pretty slim (although I could loose a love-handle or two :D) and it would probably show pretty easily on me. However, if I can run down someone that currently owns one and will allow me to try it out.. it could change my mind. But from the pictures I've seen and such, it just doesn't look like something that would fit me. I've relied on my baggy shorts with deep pockets and loose T-shirts to get me by so far..

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

As seen in Atlanta's AJC, The Vent: "In response to Cynthia Tucker's column on executing the mentally ill, I pose this question. Why is it that "this country" is only interested in taking care of the mentally ill AFTER they kill an innocent person?"

[This message has been edited by KaMaKaZe (edited August 31, 2000).]
 
KaMaKaZe, Without giving you advise on others guns (because that would fall under the handgun forum) and because I know how much you like your M85, let me tell you that Action-Direct has a 30-day return/no-questions asked policy. Just ask an FYI, I carry my M85 on the strong side just to the right of my right front pants pocket. Because the M85 is slightly thicker than the MK9, it produces a bulge when carried on the left side. Regards, FUD.

PS: Don't forget about that animated smiley.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 31, 2000).]
 
Okay, I'll look into it.

Also, I'm having real moral convictions about purchasing that laser sight system for it.. but since my girlfriend gave me the go ahead on the $$$, why the heck not right? :D

(disclaimer: I didn't ask her for permission, but she said get it just out of a side conversation regarding the revolver)

About that smiley.. I'm lookin! I'm lookin!

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"

As seen in Atlanta's AJC, The Vent: "In response to Cynthia Tucker's column on executing the mentally ill, I pose this question. Why is it that "this country" is only interested in taking care of the mentally ill AFTER they kill an innocent person?"
 
For your info, I also use the Action Direct belly band with my P-11, strong side. I have used this with dress slacks and you flat can't see anything. I am 185# and 6"2+ so I have to be careful on printing. It simply has not been a problem. I have had either the P-32 or P-11 on and asked CWP friends - Where is it? Unless they pat me down, they can not tell, and they frequently missed the P-32. And the belly band has a slot for a spare mag.

By the way, regarding the Tom Cat. Have one, don't use it. Too thick, heavy, sharp edges, horribly hard to rack, hard to fit in my hand. The flip barrel is nice, though. The P-32 is much easier to bury. Let's face it, at 3/4 inch wide max and 9.2 oz, that's tiny!
 
I use the Action Direct belly-band too. It lets me wear almost anything.

I can easily conceal a Glock 30 while wearing a tucked in t-shirt and shorts. I'll bet a 1911 wouldn't be much worse. You really CAN'T see it. Even with my arms fully extended over my head, you wouldn't think that I was carrying.
 
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