A possible scenario in the near future

I draw and scream to get down on the ground multiple times as I back away into my car with weapon still drawn. .... If it was me and I had that restraining order I wouldn't even hesitate I would pull out and yell for him to get on the ground.

And you somehow think that you have the authority to tell him to "get on the ground"? To exhibit a weapon in a threatening manner while doing so?

Think again!

If he didn't comply after the 3rd QUICK yell I would shoot.
Good way to give up your clean record, your fortune, your employability, your personal freedom, and your right to ever own a firearm.

Peace officers cannot do that. What makes you think you can?

Something to print and study today:

http://www.useofforce.us/
 
rmocarsky

I am the OP.

What are the best means of non-lethal defense available to civilians and the most potent to put 'em down from maybe 10 yards instantly and not endanger yourself of going down beside him due to wind change?

I am serious . . .

I have a real fear that this will probably occur.

What is the BEST most debilitating LEGAL non-lethal crusher available?

Non-lethal force options:
pepper spray - only have a max range of 20 feet
taser - the kind that shoots barbed contacts and wires max range 15 feet
asp or PR24 - contact range

I can't think of a non-lethal force instrument that is effective at 30 feet or more; except perhaps this new device.
http://www.defensereview.com/taser-...ctronic-projectile-less-lethal-shotgun-round/
taserlongrange05.jpg
 
rmocarsky said:
"I am the OP.

What are the best means of non-lethal defense available to civilians and the most potent to put 'em down from maybe 10 yards instantly and not endanger yourself of going down beside him due to wind change?

I am serious . . .

I have a real fear that this will probably occur.

What is the BEST most debilitating LEGAL non-lethal crusher available?"
Unfortunately you are looking for a non-lethal silver bullet - and one does not exist.

10 yards = 30 feet. 30 feet is a long defensive pistol shot, nevermind a reasonable distance for pepper spray, impact weapons, or even Tasers.

And, no matter what weapon you use, (including handguns,) "instantly" is going to be problematic.

If you have 30 feet distance, your best bet is to try to keep it. That is, back away from the threat (or hell, run if you can.) As JohnKSa noted, first your life may be on the line; but if not most certainly every penny you have in the bank, your house, your health, your family, and your freedom are on the line. If running will keep you alive, free, and out of courtrooms, that sounds like a great outcome to me.

There are likely other experts on the board who can provide more details than I can.

But generally speaking, the non-lethal force continuum moves from entirely passive tools such as "light", to more active tools such as "sound" (e.g. personal sirens - they basically serve to draw attention), to obscurants or lacrimators such as OC pepper spray or CN or CS-based aerosol sprays.

The difference between the two can be (but isn't always) important. Basically, Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) is organic. It is extracted from plants.

CN and CS are non-organic. They are chemical compounds. In at least one case I'm familiar with the 'attacker' filed suit against the 'defender' for "assault with chemical weapons" after having been sprayed with CN/CS.

Both are effective, but only to the extent that the attacker is sprayed directly in the eyes, nose, and mouth.

You won't get that effect at 30 feet. These are close range non-lethal tools.

Next on the force continuum are impact weapons such as ball bats, pieces of pipe, golf clubs, or ASP batons. While a Lousiville slugger or one of those Mag-light flashlights with 5 D-cell batteries in it might sound like a great choice, you may want to think twice. In general, while it sounds nuts, using something that was designed for (something else) against a person opens you up for greater liability than if you hit someone with something designed to hit people with. Basically, if you want to carry an impact weapon, select either a Monadnock baton, or an ASP expanding baton, or something else designed to knock the **** out of people. Don't hit someone with a flashlight.

Obviously, all these impact weapons require very close range to use. They don't meet your needs either.

Tasers probably don't either, but they are more effective at say, 7'-9' than a baton. Besides, I'm in my mid-50s also. I'm not going fisticuffs with some younger guy hopped up on either booze or chemicals. He isn't going to get that close in the first place, or we're going to very rapidly progress up the violence continuum... We're really talking about a non-lethal option to use if suddenly confronted at close range.

Most likely, as John noted, your best bet for a non-lethal option is a spray - either OC or OC mixed with CN/CS. Keep in mind that using a non-lethal option does not preclude using lethal force afterward, if the threat does not subside.

It simply indicates to a jury that you were willing to try non-lethal force before resorting to lethal force.

Again, if you indeed "have a real fear that this will probably occur", consult a lawyer. Get your ducks in a row. Communicate with the courts and with the individual (via the lawyer). Whatever money you spend on legal fees BEFORE you shoot someone is absolute chump change compared to the legal fees you will spend AFTER you shoot someone. Anything you can possibly do to avoid having to use lethal violence is much more effective than whatever you'll do after using lethal violence. In this game, the saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is as true as it ever was.

There is really too much on the line in cases like this to just hope it will all go away. It's trite, but 'failing to plan' means 'planning to fail'. When the guy is suddenly in your face, you will react as you've planned to. If you have made no plan...that's probably how effective your response will be. Good luck with your situation.

Doc
 
Old Marksman: Here we go again!

Your quote: "And somehow, you think you have the authority to tell him to get to the ground'?? :barf: Typical resonse!

Uh, this dirt bag has threatened this man numerous times to do grave bodily harm to him... To the point that he had a restraining order issued against him. Also, this bully shows up at 4:30AM, "just to talk"........ Yeah right. Sounds like he was lying in wait for him to come home from work. Its called stalking I believe, (after being warned by a Judge to stay away from him).

Yes, he should yell at him! Ordering him (in a loud and deliberate command) to stop in his tracks immediately. "Do not approach me any further"! If he does approach, then he should order him to the ground with his weapon drawn. Any closing of the distance after all of that would result in him being dealt with (in any manor deemed necessary to eliminate this threat).

Note: Of course, with the victim being armed he should try his best to retreat and/or get in his vehicle to leave the scene if at all possible. But that may not be feasible, depending on the circumstances. If he can't leave, then what I stated above would be my best response (to this constant intrusion and threat to the man's safety and life). End of story........
 
Your quote: "And somehow, you think you have the authority to tell him to get to the ground'?? Typical resonse!

Yes, probably pretty typical of what your lawyer, the civll attorney of the man at gunpoint, law enforcement officers, and, should it come to that, a prosecuting attorney would say or ask.

Yes, he should yell at him! Ordering him (in a loud and deliberate command) to stop in his tracks immediately. "Do not approach me any further"!

Sounds very reasonable indeed. Lay opinion.

If he does approach, then he should order him to the ground with his weapon drawn.

At that point we start to disagree. What's the objective? To arrest him? What are the requirements in Maryland? Do you really want to take the risk? (Unlawful restraint, perhaps).

Note: Of course, with the victim being armed he should try his best to retreat and/or get in his vehicle to leave the scene if at all possible. But that may not be feasible, depending on the circumstances...

Back in agreement, again. Whether armed or unarmed.

Personally, I believe I would at that point use a Kimber Pepper Blaster (pyrotechnic deployment, and far more effective than a spray).

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=27921

Watch the video.

I carry one of those in addition to a firearm, in case force is required but lethal force may not be.

Now, if that doesn't work and someone bigger and younger keeps coming, there's still a much more serious option if needed.

But it will not involve telling him to get on the ground, much less trying to enforce such a command.

Should deadly force be used, I should think the existence of the restraining order and prior repots of threats, along with the disparity of force, would help a defendant. Lay opinion.

It seems to me that the fact of a pepper shot, and the existence of forensic evidence showing that the assailant continued to advance after that shot, would help still more.

In Maryland, the gun will no doubt not be part of the equation. The pepper blaster will have to suffice.
 
Get yourself away from the situation. Great, you're armed but once it's brought into play, the situation is escalated. Much better to not have that happen and have things occur that can't be changed. Just because you're armed doesn't mean it's a duty or expectation to stand and fight. Best to avoid and remove yourself from the event.
 
Skydiver3346 wrote:
Uh, this dirt bag has threatened this man numerous times to do grave bodily harm to him...

You must be familiar with case because the OP NEVER said that. All he said was:
You have been assaulted by a 30 year old weighing about 250 lbs. 6'2".

Maybe you can give us more details on this case so we can give the OP a better answer.

Scott
 
Original Poster said:
You have been assaulted by a 30 year old weighing about 250 lbs. 6'2".

You have a restraining order on him not to approach you or contact you in any way.

<snip>

He has threatened your life verbally and to do great bodily harm many, many times and then he finally assaulted you and you had the restraining order invoked.

You should have kept reading the original post, scottaschultz.
 
Scott, you apparently missed this part:

He has threatened your life verbally and to do great bodily harm many, many times and then he finally assaulted you and you had the restraining order invoked.

I think it's pretty clear that the OP would have great reason to be concerned should the man approach.
 
My reasons for disagreeing with the recommendation to command the person to "get on the ground" are as follows:

  • I seriously doubt that in most places, a civilian would have any authority to give such a command under the circumstances, or that the other person would have any duty to comply; and I do not know the criminal and civil liability that I might assume by doing so.
  • Where I live, a civilian who is not in his domicile or automobile may only produce a weapon when it is necessary to do so for lawful self-defense--when the danger is imminent. Might my having had time to tell him to get on the ground indicate that the danger of death of serious bodily harm had not actually been imminent?
  • Should the use of deadly force prove necessary, I don't think I want to have any part of my statement (made later with the benefit of counsel) used out of context to give the impression that I had fired because the person refused to comply with my command that he get on the ground, rather than in lawful self defense per se. I would rather have simply explained that I had been accosted, that I had tried to disengage, and that ultimately, I had had no choice but to defend myself.
  • Should a shooting take place, I don't think I want to have any chance at all of forensic evidence indicating that I had fired at somone who was getting down, down, or getting up and was possibly not in the act of attacking me.
  • Since I cannot use deadly force to enforce such a command, he might well refuse. Might that not then lead to his believing that I would not use deadly force should he attack me, increasing the likelihood of a shooting?
  • I do not see the point.
Surely I do not need to explain why I disagree with recommendation to use deadly force in the event that the person were to refuse the third QUICK command to get on the ground.

Using deadly force when immediately necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm is something else again, but I do agree with those who have suggested trying to disengage, and frankly, I would do so even if I lived in a "stand your ground" state.

After that, the less-than-lethal option would come into play.

I hope this appears less argumentative than my previous post and that it proves more helpful.
 
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I'm sorry if this is a repeat reply. I haven't read the whole thread. Honestly, I would tell him to stop and stay exactly where he is. If he did, then I would follow with "if you really want to talk and it's serious, then I can meet you at the police department tomorrow". If he does not stop, get in the car and drive away while calling 911.


I mentioned the option of actually talking to him in front of LEOs, well, because I assume you know this man to a degree. Know him as in former friend/relative. If he's a neighbor that you don't know well but started a bunch of crap, I probably would still give him a chance to talk if there is a pleading tone in his voice. If there's been some kind of fued (which could lead to him threatening you like he did), he could honestly be sorry and coming to apolagize. If that's the case, I'd let him do it IN FRONT OF LEOs. Even if he apologized, don't let that change anything between you. He's threatened your life. Forgive him, but don't trust him and move on.


In the sweet by and by, at the original encounter during your first post... I would tell him to stop, if not then I would've went back to the car. If he started to chase me, then I would definately begin to resort to the firearm if I thought there was a SHRED OF A CHANCE THAT HE CAUGHT ME BEFORE I COULD GET AWAY. Otherwise, keep the fact that you're carrying low-key and try to handle it without the use of the firearm, but have a plan to draw and be ready.
 
OK, duly noted!

But that doesn't change my opinion that guns in the hands of civilians are for personal protection, not to uphold or enforce the law.

Scott
 
But that doesn't change my opinion that guns in the hands of civilians are for personal protection, not to uphold or enforce the law.

I don't think any of us are disagreeing with you on that. (Well, I'm not.) :) But there may be some clarity needed about where the line is between personal protection and enforcing the law.

I understand the objections to telling the guy to get on the ground; that makes sense. But howabout yelling, "STOP! DO NOT COME CLOSER!" IF he fails to stop and you can't just get in the car and drive away (by far the preferable option), continue with, "YOU ARE VIOLATING A RESTRAINING ORDER. IF YOU COME CLOSER, I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!" If and only if he continues to approach after this, draw the gun and shoot or use the pepper spray or employ whatever other less-lethal means of protection you might have.

I think that is focused completely on the self-protection/safety issue and gives the guy more than adequate warning that you view his approaching you as a threat for a compelling reason (the restraining order and, by implication, the events that caused there to be a restraining order) and will react accordingly. If the disparity in age and size is as extreme as the OP indicated, I don't believe that a judge would consider your acti0ns unreasonable, although I am not a lawyer.

What do the rest of you think?
 
I understand the objections to telling the guy to get on the ground; that makes sense. But howabout yelling, "STOP! DO NOT COME CLOSER!" IF he fails to stop and you can't just get in the car and drive away (by far the preferable option), continue with, "YOU ARE VIOLATING A RESTRAINING ORDER. IF YOU COME CLOSER, I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!"

Sounds reasonable to me, but that's a lay opinion.

If and only if he continues to approach after this, draw the gun and shoot or use the pepper spray or employ whatever other less-lethal means of protection you might have.

OK. Bigger, younger guy, "approaching", but apparently not armed, and has made no threats at the time--just said he wants to talk..

From what I've learned, shooting at that point might get you in a lot of trouble. A lay opinion won't help here, I think.

You back away, he keeps coming, then what? Less than lethal option?

And if that doesn't work...

If you do end up using deadly force, I think the issue will be, what evidence can you produce to convince others that said force was immediately necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm.

Some ideas:

  • Prior threats and assault, and restraining order.
  • Bigger, younger guy, who should not have been there.
  • Forensic evidnce that you tried to evade.
  • Evidence of your use of less-than-lethal force before shooting.

Thoughts?
 
You might not be under any authority, but the point of a restraining order is for someone to not be near you for your protection. If this person violates that, it is an attack. The given history of the situation would call for a slim to none chance that this person only wants to "talk"
Quick is relative. A quick "Get down on the ground" takes 1 second to say fully. Repeating this should at least make the guy stop if not back away. If not you have a problem. If a person who has such an order ignores you while you have a gun then you have a bigger problem. No one in the right mental state would ignore a person pointing a gun at them.
 
A quick "Get down on the ground" takes 1 second to say fully. Repeating this should at least make the guy stop if not back away.

Well, do you want him to get down on the ground, stop, or back away?

You certainly want him to stop. I should think you would also want him to get away. What is the point in the "quick 'get down on the ground' "?

Wouldn't telling him to get away be more likely to get the desired result?
 
I agree with the folks are suggested defusing situation by moving away from the hostile.

HOWEVER, if he gets you by surprise and you are armed, knowing that he has threatened to physically hurt you previously, SHOOT HIM. Let the chips fall where they may.

Nothing is more precious then your life, atleast that is the prevailing principal we beleive in.

I also suggest that you start carrying a non-lethal bullets or a stun gun to avoid this mess, but if push comes to shove use your weapon. After all, it is for SD not a paper weight you carry all day.
 
rmocarsky ~

I would recommend a quick walk through www.useofforce.us for an overview of the "rules of the road" for when you can legally fire your weapon.

I'd also (strongly!) recommend that since you do have this significant level of concern with a true threat, that you immediately get some training from a qualified professional firearms instructor. This whole "get advice off the internet" gig really sucks, even on a good forum like TFL. Get your advice from people qualified to give it, who can discuss the situation with you in a much more personalized and detailed manner.

pax
 
Old Marksman

I seriously doubt that in most places, a civilian would have any authority to give such a command under the circumstances, or that the other person would have any duty to comply; and I do not know the criminal and civil liability that I might assume by doing so.

I don't need authority to issue commands. I can issue any command I want. There may not be any authority behind it, but I can certainly issue commands (I issue them at home all the time - nobody listens, but the commands are issued!). The idea is to get the guy to stop doing what he is doing. By authoritatively telling him to get on the ground, you might get him to listen (he may not know that he doesn't have to follow your orders).

Where I live, a civilian who is not in his domicile or automobile may only produce a weapon when it is necessary to do so for lawful self-defense--when the danger is imminent.

A man with a disparity of force, who has beat you before is apporaching you at 4:30am after (obviously) waiting for you to arrive home. That sounds lilke imminent danger.

Might my having had time to tell him to get on the ground indicate that the danger of death of serious bodily harm had not actually been imminent?

Well, it turns out you can talk while retreating. Or talk while advancing. So talking, in and of itslef, does not "take" any time. And by your reasoning, if he doesn't have "time" to talk, he doesn't have time to do anything but shoot?

give the impression that I had fired because the person refused to comply with my command

In your scenario (where you give no verbal commands to stop), the witnesses will say that you shot without warning. Which is worse? Shooting after telling the attacker to stop, or shooting without telling the attacker to stop?

Since I cannot use deadly force to enforce such a command, he might well refuse. Might that not then lead to his believing that I would not use deadly force should he attack me, increasing the likelihood of a shooting?

Huh? We can be here all day making suppositions about how a theoretical bad guy might respond to various commands. He also MIGHT attack me if I get on the phone, sensing weakness and distraction! He also MIGHT attack me if I retreat, sensing that I do not have the means to defend myself! He also MIGHT have a vest on, rendering my handgun useless. Or he MIGHT get on the ground when I point a gun at him and "command" him to do so.

Seems to me there is no one right answer: If I can retreat, I will...If I can call 911 I will, If I can get him on the ground at gun point because the first two options are not feasable, I will. If he continues to approach me after I have exhausted the above non-lethal option, I may have to shoot.

Also regarding LTL options (pepper blaster etc). I have heard it said that carrying these LTL options for civilians is bad idea. Should you ultimately shoot someone while carrying a pepper blaster, you now must convince the AG and possibly a jury that not only were you in danger, but the danger was such that your pepper blaster would not have worked (subjective, of course). That means that the BG better have had a gun (or you have a great lawyer). If all you have is a firearm, then you don't have to overcome that intermediate hurdle. Just that you were in imminent danger. BTW - I'm not sure I buy this argument, but I have heard it somewhere before....
 
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