A Pardon for Billy the Kid?
- Thread starter Hardcase
- Start date
Retired15T
New member
Just because there were other people doing the same thing Billy The Kid was doing doesn't make him any less guilty. Either through direct, hands on murder or indirect, he ordered his gang to kill, he wasn't a nice guy at all. He got his justice while the others who were pretending to be the law didn't.
If anything, charges should be entered into public record against those "law men" who were known murderers themselves. But to pardon The Kid, there's gotta be a lotta money involved for a Gov to even worry about stupid crap like this.
If anything, charges should be entered into public record against those "law men" who were known murderers themselves. But to pardon The Kid, there's gotta be a lotta money involved for a Gov to even worry about stupid crap like this.
Man, where do you get this stuff? Billy wasn't the leader of any gang. I said earlier that he shouldn't be pardoned because of the stuff he did, but at least read about the man before you make a judgment. It's easy to judge things from a modern point of view. In this day and age when a police officer or judge is guilty of misconduct there are usually steps you can take to correct the problem. In 1878 when a lawman or judge was corrupt, and against you, you usually came down with a bad case of dead. Unless you shot back. The Kid was not blameless, or a "hero" but he wasn't a psyco killer of women and children either. His type was very common on the frontier. The type that went by the "code of the west" as it were. ( I'll die before I'll run ) Look at Wyatt Earp and the " OK corral" shootout. Neither side was going to back down, so there was a fight. Wyatt was as crooked as the men he shot. Like I said, read a book instead of getting your info from hollywood westerns.
"Don't know about all that fancy talk, but I think you mean that kids are a PITA, and Billy was no exception..?? I agree !!!"
Sorry about that. Went back to school last year and the old gray matter has'nt quite hit the rinse cycle, yet. Kids can be a pain. I remember doing plenty of stuff that should've gotten me killed. Luck of the draw.
Sorry about that. Went back to school last year and the old gray matter has'nt quite hit the rinse cycle, yet. Kids can be a pain. I remember doing plenty of stuff that should've gotten me killed. Luck of the draw.
"Why, then, is he remembered over the rest?"
The only reason Billy the Kid is remembered at all is because of his escape. When he killed both his jailers and rode out of Lincoln New Mexico on April 28, 1881 he became a legend. One that had no resemblence to the real Kid. Before that, no one new who he was. He was just another two bit petty thief and cattle rustler. But that jail break was the stuff the dime novels were written about. That is why the Kid is remembered at all. As far as "remembered over the rest", he isn't. He's remembered along WITH the rest. Wyatt Earp, Doc Hilliday, "Wild Bill" Hickok, Clay Allison, John Wesley Hardin, Sam Bass, Ben Thompson, Jesse James, Cole Younger, The Daltons, Bass Reeves, hell I could go on all day. All these people were of the same cloth. Some were blatent criminals, some were not so open about their criminal activities and some were upstanding citizens, but ALL of them ( Billy included ) would fight before they would run. All of them killed other men in armed confrontations at one time or another for whatever reason, weather those reasons were pure or not. At one time or another, when givin the option to run or fight, they ALL fought.
The only reason Billy the Kid is remembered at all is because of his escape. When he killed both his jailers and rode out of Lincoln New Mexico on April 28, 1881 he became a legend. One that had no resemblence to the real Kid. Before that, no one new who he was. He was just another two bit petty thief and cattle rustler. But that jail break was the stuff the dime novels were written about. That is why the Kid is remembered at all. As far as "remembered over the rest", he isn't. He's remembered along WITH the rest. Wyatt Earp, Doc Hilliday, "Wild Bill" Hickok, Clay Allison, John Wesley Hardin, Sam Bass, Ben Thompson, Jesse James, Cole Younger, The Daltons, Bass Reeves, hell I could go on all day. All these people were of the same cloth. Some were blatent criminals, some were not so open about their criminal activities and some were upstanding citizens, but ALL of them ( Billy included ) would fight before they would run. All of them killed other men in armed confrontations at one time or another for whatever reason, weather those reasons were pure or not. At one time or another, when givin the option to run or fight, they ALL fought.
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aarondhgraham
New member
Publicity stunt,,,
<Cynicism>
This is just another politician trying to get his name in the papers,,,
It serves no other purpose except maybe New Mexico tourism.
I'm all for New Mexico tourism by the way,,,
Beautiful late evening drive.
</Cynicism>
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<Cynicism>
This is just another politician trying to get his name in the papers,,,
It serves no other purpose except maybe New Mexico tourism.
I'm all for New Mexico tourism by the way,,,
Beautiful late evening drive.
</Cynicism>
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MJN77 said:
To this very day the government makes deals with some of the worst criminal types in exchange for their cooperation. Folks that no one would want to see getting off scott free but they do. And to top it off they're given new identities and a place to live and income. And that can include their family members too.
Once the deal to protect someone is struck then the government can't simply back out afterward. That's bargaining in bad faith and shows just how corrupt a system can be.
Billy received the justice for his crime so now he has more than earned his pardon as promised. It's about the authorities keeping their word which is suppose to be more important than whether a criminal goes free or not.
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Retired15T
New member
MJN77,
I'm no expert on the Wild West as I suspect you aren't either. I have "read about the man" and "Where I got this stuff" is in the following link.
Billy did have a gang at one point. Read the Wikipedia article on him here. The Kid wasn't the normally known "Gang Leader" of the time, but there was a time when he had a gang of men with him that followed his directions.
McCarty started his adult life as a common criminal. He escaped jail after having been found in possession of stolen clothes and firearms. He never served his sentence for that crime. It wasn't much longer before he became a murderer.
Now, why in the world you feel the need to make comments like, "Where do you get this stuff from?" and "Read about the man before making a judgment" is beyond me. From what I've read of the man, he was affable when it suited his needs and deadly when his needs weren't met.
Also, I never said Billy The Kid was a psycho. But to kill ANYONE while breaking the law and going against common precepts such as, "Don't steal another man's stuff and you won't be called a thief" is a pretty good indicator of having a mental issue or ten. Today's foster parents are worth a damn, by and large, but just like today, The Kid found himself in a horrible home situation with his foster parents. I won't go into my childhood here, but I will say this. It was HORRIFIC. I've never stolen anything, never taken a job that required me to break the law and never killed anyone who didn't really deserve it.
In other words, I've never killed a man who wasn't trying to kill me. And since I was in the Army when that happened and deployed overseas, and the few guys I have killed were either shooting at my helicopter, me or my army buddies, I don't need a pardon for it.
It's obvious you've some love of the old west and the frontier. But don't bring your offensive and condescending attitude into a conversation like this. Just no reason for it.
I'm no expert on the Wild West as I suspect you aren't either. I have "read about the man" and "Where I got this stuff" is in the following link.
Billy did have a gang at one point. Read the Wikipedia article on him here. The Kid wasn't the normally known "Gang Leader" of the time, but there was a time when he had a gang of men with him that followed his directions.
McCarty started his adult life as a common criminal. He escaped jail after having been found in possession of stolen clothes and firearms. He never served his sentence for that crime. It wasn't much longer before he became a murderer.
Now, why in the world you feel the need to make comments like, "Where do you get this stuff from?" and "Read about the man before making a judgment" is beyond me. From what I've read of the man, he was affable when it suited his needs and deadly when his needs weren't met.
Also, I never said Billy The Kid was a psycho. But to kill ANYONE while breaking the law and going against common precepts such as, "Don't steal another man's stuff and you won't be called a thief" is a pretty good indicator of having a mental issue or ten. Today's foster parents are worth a damn, by and large, but just like today, The Kid found himself in a horrible home situation with his foster parents. I won't go into my childhood here, but I will say this. It was HORRIFIC. I've never stolen anything, never taken a job that required me to break the law and never killed anyone who didn't really deserve it.
In other words, I've never killed a man who wasn't trying to kill me. And since I was in the Army when that happened and deployed overseas, and the few guys I have killed were either shooting at my helicopter, me or my army buddies, I don't need a pardon for it.
It's obvious you've some love of the old west and the frontier. But don't bring your offensive and condescending attitude into a conversation like this. Just no reason for it.
First off, I have actually been a student of the "old west" and specifically Billy the Kid for over 20 years. I may not be an expert, but I bet I have researched the subject more than you have.
Second, believing ANYTHING on wikipedia is like believing what you read in the enquierer. They are known for posting BS. Hell, they even list his B-day when every serious historian knows that was made up by Ash Upson when he co-wrote Pat Garret's book. No one really knows when Billy was born or if he was even 21 when he was shot.
Third, no Billy did NOT have a "gang". He rustled cattle with a few "buddies". Men like Dave Rudabaugh would have shot anybody that even acted like that were trying to give him orders, and Charlie Bowdre was at least 10 years older than the kid and went through the Lincoln County War right along with the Kid (Charlie is the man that killed "Buckshot" Roberts ) so I don't think he would have felt the need to look to the Kid for guidence.
It's easy to sit in your chair at the computer and judge what happened 120 years ago with a modern mind set. It was a different place and time. The law was corrupt and had no problem killing those that were in their way. You should know, when people try to kill you you shoot back. That's what the "war" was about. The only killing he did when breaking the law was his jailers, one of which was a gunman and known murderer on "the other side" in the "war". If you want to read about what the Kid was actually like, go here for a start. http://www.aboutbillythekid.com/
A good book is Billy The Kid: a short and violent life by Robert M. Utley.
I stand by my statement "where do you get this stuff" If Wikipedia is your source you have been misinformed.
Second, believing ANYTHING on wikipedia is like believing what you read in the enquierer. They are known for posting BS. Hell, they even list his B-day when every serious historian knows that was made up by Ash Upson when he co-wrote Pat Garret's book. No one really knows when Billy was born or if he was even 21 when he was shot.
Third, no Billy did NOT have a "gang". He rustled cattle with a few "buddies". Men like Dave Rudabaugh would have shot anybody that even acted like that were trying to give him orders, and Charlie Bowdre was at least 10 years older than the kid and went through the Lincoln County War right along with the Kid (Charlie is the man that killed "Buckshot" Roberts ) so I don't think he would have felt the need to look to the Kid for guidence.
It's easy to sit in your chair at the computer and judge what happened 120 years ago with a modern mind set. It was a different place and time. The law was corrupt and had no problem killing those that were in their way. You should know, when people try to kill you you shoot back. That's what the "war" was about. The only killing he did when breaking the law was his jailers, one of which was a gunman and known murderer on "the other side" in the "war". If you want to read about what the Kid was actually like, go here for a start. http://www.aboutbillythekid.com/
A good book is Billy The Kid: a short and violent life by Robert M. Utley.
I stand by my statement "where do you get this stuff" If Wikipedia is your source you have been misinformed.
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Retired15T,
I am not trying to be an a$$, but I do like the debate. I have said in my previous posts, Billy was no saint and he should not be pardoned, but you can't fairly judge someone until you know what really happened in their lifetime and what their day and age were like. In NM in the 1870's, cattle rustling was looked at as "sport" and "no big deal" unless you were caught or you were the one that had your stock stolen. Jimmy Dolan, the leader of the "opposing side" operated in stolen cattle and sold them to the army. The army didn't even care where they came from. The point is, Billy was the ONLY one that fought in the Lincoln War, on either side that was tried for anything, and believe me out of dozens of killers on both sides the Kid doesn't even come close to the worst. The lawmen that hunted him, the prosecutor that tried him, the judge that sentenced him, the jailer that guarded him were all connected with the Dolan side, and Dolan was friends with a lot of powerful politicians in Santa Fe. That kinda sounds like a biased crowd to me. The 2 killings that Billy commited on his own before his jail break were self defence. The killings that he helped with during the "war" were just that, acts of war. Both sides were killing each other. Neither side was more "right" than the other, but when a group of people are trying to kill your group, you would tend to shoot back. Again, Billy was no saint, but he wasn't the "demon" that people paint him as. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, that was not my intention. But you can't believe everything you read on the internet, and a few paragraphs on Wikipedia isn't exactly the best place to get your facts from.
I am not trying to be an a$$, but I do like the debate. I have said in my previous posts, Billy was no saint and he should not be pardoned, but you can't fairly judge someone until you know what really happened in their lifetime and what their day and age were like. In NM in the 1870's, cattle rustling was looked at as "sport" and "no big deal" unless you were caught or you were the one that had your stock stolen. Jimmy Dolan, the leader of the "opposing side" operated in stolen cattle and sold them to the army. The army didn't even care where they came from. The point is, Billy was the ONLY one that fought in the Lincoln War, on either side that was tried for anything, and believe me out of dozens of killers on both sides the Kid doesn't even come close to the worst. The lawmen that hunted him, the prosecutor that tried him, the judge that sentenced him, the jailer that guarded him were all connected with the Dolan side, and Dolan was friends with a lot of powerful politicians in Santa Fe. That kinda sounds like a biased crowd to me. The 2 killings that Billy commited on his own before his jail break were self defence. The killings that he helped with during the "war" were just that, acts of war. Both sides were killing each other. Neither side was more "right" than the other, but when a group of people are trying to kill your group, you would tend to shoot back. Again, Billy was no saint, but he wasn't the "demon" that people paint him as. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, that was not my intention. But you can't believe everything you read on the internet, and a few paragraphs on Wikipedia isn't exactly the best place to get your facts from.
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Actually not true. In this instance there are numerous references of sources, reputable sources. So while somethings are posted to Wikipedia without references, it's noted when there aren't enough references, it can be a good source of information.
So while I wouldn't and don't rely solely on wikipedia for information if the postings are referenced properly it is a good source.
andrewstorm
Moderator
kid pardon
Legendary William Bonny,was already pardoned by one lying politician,hed probably roll over in his grave at the thought of another one doing it officially now
Legendary William Bonny,was already pardoned by one lying politician,hed probably roll over in his grave at the thought of another one doing it officially now
bedbugbilly
New member
pohill - love your thoughts on the Souix and the Black Hills . . . while all the politicians are doing these good deeds of pardoning, etc. . . . . let's have 'em do away with "Columbus Day" as well . . . . . for some reason, I never did buy the story that he discovered America . . . . or would these thoughts make me "politically incorrect"? I sure as hell wouldn't want that . . . . 
Rampant_Colt
New member
Just another criminal glamorized by dime store novels and cheesy movies.. Hell, he was the "Left-Handed Gun" for many years before anyone figured out that the famous photo image of him was reversed.
Pardon him now? Sarcastic slow clap for a brilliant media stunt
Pardon him now? Sarcastic slow clap for a brilliant media stunt
HisSoldier
New member
Your comments are interesting. I live on the Oregon coast, we are surrounded with Illegals. My friend lives near Somerton, west of Yuma, he's told me many stories.
I say let's vacation Mr. Obama to the area without body guards, maybe he would change his mind if he survived. There are truly two types of people in America today, those of us who get it, and a majority who don't, but hold the reigns of power.