A little inside information on S&W...

M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Can't strictly vouch for much of this information, but the source has always been pretty reliable for me...

To date, well over 100 S&W authorized dealers have revoked their dealer agreements with S&W, including Carter Country(?), the largest retailer of S&W handguns in the country. The expectation is that a LOT more will be dropping their agreements, but just haven't gotten around to contacting S&W yet.

Small-market mid-year orders (placed through wholesalers like Camfour, etc.) are down nearly 50%.

Supposedly Ellett Brothers and RSR have both indicated that they will be dropping their distribution agreements with S&W at the end of the contract--that alone would kill nearly 70% of all S&W wholesale sales in the US.

Sales of S&W co-branded items such as clothing, etc., are virtually at a standstill, and are down over 80%. Midway canceled their dealer's agreement a couple of days after the agreement was signed.

My friend expects things to get a LOT worse in the coming few months.

There's no way in hell that the Government, state, local OR federal will even purchase enough handguns to keep S&W in business if this keeps up.

My friend fully expects S&W to be filing for bankruptcy protection within a year.
 
I sure hope this turns out to be the case.

The black cloud hanging over any media celebrity or commercial enterprise should be: "Push the anti-gun agenda and die (metaphorically)".

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Yep, them high dollar S/W shooting glasses I bought a year ago got a test last night. Seems they don't stop a 45 Cal. slug from a mad as Hell consumer who will not buy any thing with S/W on it (unless it's for target practice). Now let's see if the Government trys to sue me for being naughty!
ESADie!
 
VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
I'm sort of split on this one. On the one hand I'm glad that the "gun community" has some unity. S&W sold us out, and they should pay.

On the other hand, we're going to kill off the world's best manufacturer of revolvers in the world. Not pretty. I had several S&W products on my wish list including a 625 and the classic Model 29. Now I'm scouting the gun rags to try and choose a manufacturer that comes close to the quality/variety offered by S&W.

They deserve what they get, but its no cause for celebration on the part of gun-lovers.
 
Check out the July issue of Handgun magazine.
Good interview with Ed Shultz and why HE did what HE did. :) FWIW

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
 
Don't forget the rank and file workers there who were not party to the deed, and still have to feed their families.
Remember it was the suits and foreign owners that dropped their drawers, so tender your wrath with mercy for the people who, through no fault of their own, may be out of a job by year's end.
============
Alternating currents
Force a show of hands
Rational responses
Force a chance of plans
anything can happen
Music by Lee and Lifeson/Lyrics by Peart
 
Hopefully, by year's end, things will be different. I'm personally hoping for a Republican administration and for the sale of
S&W to an American company or individual followed by S&W withdrawing from the agreement.

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Byron Quick
 
Sure it sucks for the employees, but thats just more people that hate S&W as much as we do. I spoke to a married couple tonight that bought a S&W revolver years ago, they told me that since S&W sold out to the clinton administration they will be buying their next gun elswhere. These are people that arent gun advocates but believe in thier right to protect their own home and family. Its these people that will only make a small dent in S&W's sales, but if there are enough of them S&W will falter. At least I hope so.

Please, dont buy S&W because you feel for their employees. Buy elswhere because the other companies employees need to keep their jobs too !

Tim :)
 
hmmmmmmmm,

A good friend of mine is one of those employees. He is in a hard spot, in fact, so are we:

We, who value individualism and people's rights to choose, are coming down awfully hard on a company who chose a course of action that really doesn't do any harm to any of us.
I've thought long and hard and I can't find one way that there decision could harm us.

S&W's opinion is that there decision only affects there product line and they would continue to ship new guns through dealers regardless of what that dealer stocked (new or old) from other dealers. They way I see it, S&W only risks hurting itself on this one in terms of sales... but potentially saving themselves millions in legal fees.

If someone can point out how they personally are hurt by S&W making this business decision, maybe I could understand all the overwhelming anger a little better.

How should we feel?

Betrayed? I don't see it.

Sold Out? They don't have that power.

Disappointed? Sure, but that shouldn't call for this much anger, should it?

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-Essayons
 
Rod:

"Doesn't really do any harm to us..."

Huh?

Where did you get that idea?

This "agreement" can potentially do GREAT harm to gunowners, from opening the door to an absolute landslide of anti-firearms legislation to driving the price we pay for firearms and possibly even accessories (do you think the ammo companies are far behind for the antis?) completely and totally out of sight.

Worse, it completely fragments what should be a unified corporate front against these charges. It shows the government that the companies can potentially be picked off one by one, which can be a lot easier than trying to assault a unified front.

More directly, any dealer who continues to stock S&W firearms will be mandated to follow a prescribed and draconian regime for selling ALL firearms from ALL manufacturers, not just S&W firearms.

Don't even kid yourself for a moment, Rob. This corporate sell-out by S&W has the long-term potential to devastate the shooting sports.
 
Rob, I can't believe you and I are sideways on a couple issues ... ;)

OK, I'll bite. First, someone on TFL posted this link - good review of the agreement: http://www.reasonmag.com/0006/co.wo.a.html

If dealers went along with this crap, I would be personally hurt by:

1. Gun shows where private sales would become more than a little problematic. If the FFL / S&W dealer sells at the show per the agreement, then the show promoter must require NICS checks on all sales, including private sales. But, there is no provision in the NICS system to facilitate private sales, to my knowledge. Even if there was, why should my private sale / purchase be a matter of public record, when that requirement couldn't make it through Congress?

2. My choice of goods at FFL's may suffer without reason. For example, my local S&W dealer can't sell full capacity magazines, simply because of this agreement. So, again, a provision that couldn't make it through Congress is now a limitation on me. Imposed by bureaucrats, via legal extortion.

3. According to the agreement, I can't buy a gun from an S&W dealer unless I've proved that I have met some safety / training standard. Another new requirement, imposed without the cooperation of Congress.

4. Let's ignore the agreement's provisions for a moment ... I've just lost more freedom in my country because Congress can be ignored without consequence, and unpopular gun control provisions can be enacted via legal extortion imposed by the executive branch of government. No, this isn't new. But, I think the S&W 'agreement' is an egregious example, and Congress looks like a collective bunch of fools.

We can come up with many, many more examples, IMHO.


Now, as to S&W going bankrupt ... I certainly don't wish this trauma upon their employees. But, let's be realistic. There is a decent chance that S&W will not simply disappear. The company has value, in its name (which, under the right conditions, can be restored), in its designs, in the expertise of its employee base, and in its manufacturing assets. I would venture that they will be purchased / merged in a bankruptcy action.

My prediction is that S&W will ultimately survive. But, I agree that, in its present form, S&W must die ... to be reborn later, hopefully, as the once proud company it once was.

This administration cannot benefit, in any way, from this extortion. The surest way to prevent that, IMHO, is for everyone in America to witness the death of a firearms legend, and to realize that this assault on the RKBA must be halted in its tracks.

So, other than that, what rifle did you get? ;) [I can see it now ... I'm going to have to buy 2 rounds of drinks ... ;) ]

Regards from AZ
 
Rob,

please read the agreement, it is much more far ranging than you might think.

Please read the agreement. The full text is HERE: http://www.nraila.org/research/20000321-BillofRightsCivilRights-002.shtml

BELOW IS THE NRA'a summary of the agreement:
(the full version is here: http://www.nraila.com/research/20000320-BillofRightsCivilRights-001.shtml )

Here are just some of the terms of the S & W/Clinton-Gore Administration agreement:

CONSUMER IMPACT . . .

Prohibited from buying more than one handgun in a 14-day period.

Prohibited from buying a firearm without passing an unspecified safety test.

Prohibited from buying a self-defense handgun that did not meet arbitrary accuracy standards.

Prohibited, if under age 18, from even walking into the firearms section of a sporting goods store unless accompanied by a parent or guardian.

DEALER IMPACT . . .

Prohibited from selling legal semi-automatic rifles, commonplace ammunition magazines and firearms that do not meet the difficult standards established in the agreement.

Prohibited from selling firearms at any gun show where any legal private sale is conducted.

Required to include with every firearm sold, a false written statement in large bold-face type that hundreds of children die each year from firearm accidents.

Required to carry $1 million in liability insurance and perform tasks properly handled by law enforcement to comply with the edicts of a new "Oversight Commission."

MANUFACTURER IMPACT . . .

Prohibited from marketing any firearm in a way that appeals to young shooters and hunters.

Required to dedicate 1% of revenues to a propaganda campaign promoting the dangers of gun ownership.

Required to support legislative efforts to reduce firearms misuse and development of "smart" gun technology.

Required to "ballistically fingerprint" every firearm, thus setting up backdoor national firearms registration.

Required to meet certain unproven design standards for handguns sold only to civilians--guns sold to military and police would be exempted, thereby showing the intent is not to make guns safer or better, but to impose standards that will ultimately eliminate sales, to private citizens.

Required to manufacture pistol with positive, manually-operated safety devices as determined by BATF standards applying to imported handguns. BATF has repeatedly handed down politically-driven misinterpretations of the "sporting purposes" importation law, to prohibit many semi-auto rifles and handguns.
 
I read the agreement, and I talked to S&W's head PR guy about it. I think I explained this when the agreement first came out:

Smith & Wesson only intends to regulate the S&W product line of its dealers.. not anything else.


Here's the thing.. The DEALER's didn't sign the agreement.. it is S&W's position that they are not going to stop selling to any Dealer who agrees to only carry things from their product line that meet the requirements.

I don't know how many times I can say that.

Joe the S&W dealer can still sell all the Pre-ban ARs and Hi-caps that he wants to as far as Smith is concerned.. so long as he doesn't stock any hi-cap mags for a 5906 or whatever....

If the Gov't wants to interpret that as a violation of the agreement, then the Lawsuit will be back on. The Gov't can't hold the dealer's responsible for S&W's interpretation of the agreement. There is no way that the Govt can hold a dealer responsible for violating S&W's sales policy!!!
If I am missing something, and someone sees a legal way that this could be done, please explain it. Again, if the DEALER's aren't making an agreement with the Govt, how can they be held responsible by that govt to do anything?


Don't get me wrong, I can see how they have philosophically let down eveyone fighting for less gun restrictions... but I don't see how they have engendered instant hatred.

Seems to me like we should put half this much zeal into shutting down companies like the one that is using legislation to sell its combination lock magazines. Bashing S&W to me is just what the Anti's would like to see.

Different companies have reacted in differetn ways to gov't pressure. Colt & Glock both worked with or are working on Smart Gun Technology w/ the Govt, Ruger stopped marketing certain firearms to civilians, Taurus backed off from an agressive pro self defense ad campaign that they were going to run, now I see that Sig has designed some goofy electronic shot recording microchip. Hardly any major gun company is just going about its business of making and selling guns "the ol' fashioned way."

I hate to see infighting in the gunloving ranks, whether it be CCW vs. sport shooter, Civilian vs. LE or any of the million other varieties of gun owners that have different points of view. Some of you will remember the FOUP project, which was all about fighting the division occuring inside the pro-gun movement. How huge a victory is it for the Antis if S&W dies?


Psywar,

The NRA's summary of the agreement is, ahem, The NRA's summary of the agreement. They may be on our side, but they are in the same business as HCI. With a name like "Psywar", I would think you would be more discerning. ;)

I'll address a few points:

Guns have always (polygonal rifling usually excepted) had balistic fingerprints.... and companies have always test fired their guns. So now they trap the bullets and file them away, perhaps putting a picture of them in a computer file that might be matched to a bullet found on a crime scene some day. If you don't use your bought-from-a-dealer gun to commit a crime, I don't see how this can be a bad thing. It is not registering owners, it is filing the balistic signature of the barrel. BATF (or whoever) would have to follow the history of that weapon's transfers to find the owner, much like any weapon found today would have to be tracked by serial numbers.

______
"Prohibited from marketing any firearm in a way that appeals to young shooters and hunters."

So, Now the NRA is deciding what guns appeal to young shooters and hunters? Or are the Anti's right about the way gun owners are seduced by the glorification of guns in the popular media? The NRA should be embarrased by that statement, as a gun owner I know that I am.
______

Absolutely none of the "Consumer Impact" items are going to be influenced or controlled by S&W. They would all have to be legislated.

___________________


Jeff,

I went back and reviewed Mr. Olsen's FAQ about the agreement.. and while it is a wonderful and entertaining pro-gun diatribe, it is not 100% accurate. S&W is not going to require 90% of the things from its dealers that he claims.

90% of the concern over the supposed ramifications of this deal stem from the idea that S&W is going to require that all of its stocking dealers and distributors sign the agreement, and that is not the case as I understand it. I asked that question very directly and was assured that S&W was only going to enforce the items that applied to their product line. If someone can find ANY example of a Stocking Dealer being told by S&W that they had to sign an agreement with the Govt or that they had to abide by the tenets of the agreement with the non-Smith portion of their product line, please tell me. I'll realize that I have been lied to and I'll retract my statements, condemning S&W to die an agonizing death with shelves full of un-sellable weaponry (which might be sold very cheaply at auction after the bankruptcy ;)).

Oh, and it's an Armalite AR-10..... [and after this, I'm going to have my buddy at S&W send us a gallon of Gentleman Jack ;)]

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-Essayons



[This message has been edited by Rob (edited June 02, 2000).]
 
Rob, It doesn't really matter what S&W INTENDS to do. It matters what the agrrement says they HAVE to do. It doesn't say that you can only buy 1 S&W handgun in a 2 week period, it says you can only buy 1 handgun in a 14 day period. If it only applies to their product line, it would say it only applies to their product line.
Eric

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Formerly Puddle Pirate.
Teach a kid to shoot.
It annoys the antis.
"But Officer I HAVE to have all these guns in the truck, I'm going to TFL End of Summer Meet"
 
Rob, where were you a couple of months ago when I was being flamed left & right when I was suggesting that instead of attacking S&W, we should support them in finding a way for them to back out of this agreement? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rob: ... If you don't use your bought-from-a-dealer gun to commit a crime, I don't see how this can be a bad thing ...[/quote]My understanding is that the striker will indent a serial number on the primer when firing the round. While I do not intent to use my firearm for illegal purposes, what's to stop somebody from picking up my brass and planting them somewhere. Call me paranoid, but I have a problem with that.

Finally, anyone who has read my posts in the past, knows that I am a big fan of S&W pistols (except for their Sigma line) but the more I hear Ed Schultz speak, the less guilty I feel about buying another company's products ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Comments made by Shultz AFTER signing the Agreement: ... I believe that the Second Amendment is an ABSOLUTE right and I am as emotional about it as anybody. My guns will not be confiscated im my lifetime. They may take them away after the firefight but not while I'm still living.
Source: July 2000 issue of G&A Handguns[/quote]Yeah, right. FUD
fudeagle.gif

Share what you know, learn what you don't.
 
Rob,

While I know that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed ;-), and also no legal expert, I do believe that I have common sense and can read and understand what I read fairly well. Having read the original complete text of the contract, S&W said that they WOULD enforce certain things with their dealers.

Some of the items are mentioned above. Now according to your sources they say that even though they did say it in the contract it really doesn't mean what it say they said they meant to say ;-). So which is it, are they lying now?! did they lie then?! Why did they sign on to this deal, save themselfs from bankrupcy as Ed Shultz has stated?! Who knows, but I care. And yes, there have been other companies over the years who I believe have also betrayed the RKBA! issue (I haven't forgotten the Ruger fiasco of many years ago[limit hi cap mags]).

I think that this deal that S&W cut was the preverbial straw that broke the back of gun owners. We're now really pi$$ed and not gonna take it any more - at least I am. I have not and will not purchase any S&W products until things change, and I strongly encourage others to do the same.

So my opinion is that S&W must feel the wrath of gun owners by us NOT supporting them. If for no other reason than to show unity to all the other firearm manufacturers and gun grabbers that we are a force to be reconned with.

Another,
Rob

RKBA!

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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
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