A Lesson in Recoil

L

ligonierbill

New member
Had a good range session this morning and got me a lesson. Three rifles: Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem Mag, Savage 116 338 Win Mag, and Winchester Model 70 (my new toy) 416 Rem Mag. If you saw the thread, I have been working with another BDL in 8mm Rem Mag and comparing it to my 338. I have had the 7 Mag for many years, handed down from Dad. At first I thought it was a handful, but by now just a quick, sharp thump. No problem. The 338 I have owned for 10 years, and until recently it was the hardest kicker I had. A real jaw jolter. That 8 Mag should kick harder, but as I reported, it didn't seem so. Shooting the 338 today confirmed it. I can shoot good groups with it, but it borders on the unpleasant. So, does the 338 really have a "special" nasty recoil? Read on!

Enter my newest, a Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in 416 Rem Mag. Today I tried it out with some Barnes commercial ammo, which ran 2,500 fps with 400 gr solids. Yep, 100 fps faster than expected, but LabRadar doesn't lie. From the bench. Sounds ferocious. Well, it kicks, really rocks you back, but it doesn't feel like you caught a good left from the champ.

So, why is this? Weight? Maybe.The BDL weighs just under 9 lb (the 8 Mag without sights and with a bigger hole in the tube, probably less), the Savage comes in right at 8 lb against 8 1/2 for the M70 (no scope yet). Two other things. First, length of pull. The 7 Mag (haven't measured, but I presume the 8 Mag also) measures 13 1/2". The 416 just under 14", and the 338 just over 14". So, it's a little long for me. Not much, but it adds up. Second, the 700s and the M70 have a higher comb and a cheek piece. With a good cheek weld, the load is spread vs. the Savage where your jaw is against the narrow top of the stock.

What it all adds up to is that, for me at least, the fit of the rifle is the most important factor. Not in how much recoil is coming. That's physics. But it makes all the difference in how pleasant, or unpleasant, the shooting is.
 
Perceived recoil- yes, good fit and hold are important but....

weight is important when you want to tame recoil with a well fit gun. They really can be too light. That’s the acceleration factor that you need to absorb, beyond the momentum.
 
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When I put a Bell & Carlson on my 280 and 7mm Mag, the recoil change was amazing. Their cheek piece is excellent, pushing the recoil directly to the shoulder.
 
Perceived or felt recoil is mostly between the ears, the brain is easily fooled. Stop guessing and plug the numbers in to a recoil calculator and see the real numbers.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

The results can be surprising. And recoil velocity is also part of the equation. For example 300 WM and 35 Whelen have virtually the same recoil in equal weight rifles. But the recoil velocity is a little faster with 300 WM and most people find 35 Whelen recoil a little more comfortable.

Stock shape is another part of recoil, and this is truly subjective. A 30-30 doesn't have a lot of recoil, but the stock design of most lever actions make the recoil more uncomfortable than 308 from more modern stock designs. Even in the same weight rifles.
 
So energy is 1/2 mass X velocity squared. Equal and opposite, so you would expect something with higher muzzle energy to have a lot more recoil. Sometimes, but velocity and pressure have a lot to do with the speed of the recoil. Recoil from lower velocity big bores is not the sharp stab you get fron 300 Win Mag, or the 8mm Mag. I found this out 40 years ago with my first 375, it's more like shooting a shotgun, a firm but slower push. Don't even talk about the Weatherbys, they have high pressure AND high velocity, so the big boys hurt. 416s are made for people to shoot big stuff that will turn you into a greasy spot in the savanna, so you don't want punishing recoil or people won't shoot when they are supposed to. I like my big bores, and people watch me shoot them and just shake their heads.
 
Recoil velocity......I learned about this the hard way. I own a couple of heavy kicking Guns: a Ruger #1 in .416 Rigby and a Winchester m.70 in .375 H&H.
I shoot these regularly. Never a problem.
I got interested in large bore subsonic sniper rounds. I bought a barrel for my T/C Encore from SSK Industries. It was chambered for the 50-70 Govt. The barrel had a 1-8 twist. The idea was to load the 50-70 case with a propellant like H322 and top it with a 690 grain BMG bullet. The bullet has a muzzle velocity of about 900 FPS. Sounds simple.
The first shot broke my shooting glasses. The second shot knocked the second set of glasse off my face.
While the free recoil was not nearly as heavy as the .416, the pulse was so fast that I could not keep the scope from my face. Had to go to a Scout mounting with a red dot.;
 
I guess recoil really is an individual thing. Lots of factors, physical and mental. But did I mention I am really pleased with my Portuguese Winchester. Plain gun, matte finish. Plain wood with flat finish. But a slick action, good sights, pretty good trigger. And now that I'm master of the 416, I'll have to try a 505 Gibbs - NOT!
 
Perceived or felt recoil is mostly between the ears, the brain is easily fooled. Stop guessing and plug the numbers in to a recoil calculator and see the real numbers.
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Yes, perception is between the ears and the brain is easily fooled. This does go a long way to explaining politics....:D

Getting the "real numbers" doesn't tell you anything about how the recoil will feel.

As a lad beginning deer hunting a Winchester 94 .30-30 kicked the snot out of me. However, the Rem 600 .308 Win that my Dad gave me didn't. It DID KICK, but unlike the .30-30, it didn't hurt me.

Friends who shot both claimed the .308 "Kicked like hell" and the .30-30 just "kicked".

By the numbers the .308 had more recoil, but it FELT differently to me.

Numbers don't lie, but they're really only useful for comparing against other numbers as general indicators, not precise predictors of things where individual feel is involved..
 
For those that believe 'perceived recoil' is all in your head, if you'd like, we'd love for you to come down to the DFW area and you can shoot Boomer (Barrrett .50 BMG) with the muzzle brake on and off, then decide.

Hint: With the muzzle brake off, 'it ain't "PERCEIVED" recoil', it's just your shoulder coping with 12,500 ft-lbs of energy for a few milliseconds. :D

(PS You'll have to sign a waiver:) )
 
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I have a lightweight rifle in 375 Ruger without muzzle brake--it's definitely not a "perceived" thing when I fire it--much more a question of how I hold it (and any other big bangers). Put a good brake on and almost anything becomes a pussycat.
 
ligonierbill said:
Had a good range session this morning and got me a lesson. Three rifles: Remington 700 BDL 7mm Rem Mag, Savage 116 338 Win Mag, and Winchester Model 70 (my new toy) 416 Rem Mag. If you saw the thread, I have been working with another BDL in 8mm Rem Mag and comparing it to my 338. I have had the 7 Mag for many years, handed down from Dad. At first I thought it was a handful, but by now just a quick, sharp thump. No problem. The 338 I have owned for 10 years, and until recently it was the hardest kicker I had. A real jaw jolter. That 8 Mag should kick harder, but as I reported, it didn't seem so. Shooting the 338 today confirmed it. I can shoot good groups with it, but it borders on the unpleasant. So, does the 338 really have a "special" nasty recoil? Read on!

Enter my newest, a Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in 416 Rem Mag. Today I tried it out with some Barnes commercial ammo, which ran 2,500 fps with 400 gr solids. Yep, 100 fps faster than expected, but LabRadar doesn't lie. From the bench. Sounds ferocious. Well, it kicks, really rocks you back, but it doesn't feel like you caught a good left from the champ.

So, why is this? Weight? Maybe.The BDL weighs just under 9 lb (the 8 Mag without sights and with a bigger hole in the tube, probably less), the Savage comes in right at 8 lb against 8 1/2 for the M70 (no scope yet). Two other things. First, length of pull. The 7 Mag (haven't measured, but I presume the 8 Mag also) measures 13 1/2". The 416 just under 14", and the 338 just over 14". So, it's a little long for me. Not much, but it adds up. Second, the 700s and the M70 have a higher comb and a cheek piece. With a good cheek weld, the load is spread vs. the Savage where your jaw is against the narrow top of the stock.

What it all adds up to is that, for me at least, the fit of the rifle is the most important factor. Not in how much recoil is coming. That's physics. But it makes all the difference in how pleasant, or unpleasant, the shooting is.
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I would rather shoot a 458 Win mag than one perticular 700 BDL 300 Win Mag my father has. I have no idea what it is about that rifle, but its simply brutal. Feels like my shoulder is about to break off.
And I have shot, to name a few:
460 Wby
458 Win
416 Rigby
30-378
338 Lapua
8 Rem Mag
375 Wby
375 H&H
375 Ruger
340 Wby
300 Wby
Plenty of other 300 Winchesters
Etc etc etc.
That one 300 BDL is the spawn of Satan.
 
stagpanther said:
I have a lightweight rifle in 375 Ruger without muzzle brake--it's definitely not a "perceived" thing when I fire it--much more a question of how I hold it (and any other big bangers). Put a good brake on and almost anything becomes a pussycat.
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A brake makes a major difference. So does timing. A bolt gun generally transmits ALL of the energy from the barrel to the stock and into the shoulder in less than 10 milliseconds.

Some of the more sophisticated weapons with very serious muzzle energy, both bolt an semi, 'time' the energy movement to stretch it out over time. The MacMillian Tac 50 bolt gun comes to mind, they have a hydraulic buffer that spreads out the shock over time. The Barrett semi .50 doesn't have a buffer but moves the barrel back, then the bolt carrier, then the rest of the rifle body (total of ~35 lbs) over about 100milliseconds, so it feels more like someone pushing your shoulder than hitting it with a baseball bat.
 
Back in '63, I got a 2 or 3-year-old Winchester Model 94 NIB condition. I paid about $55.00 for it and I was happy with it and the price. After I sighted it in at 100yds and having it kick the crap out of me, I wanted nothing to do with that thing. Luckily some guy walks up to me and starts telling me the Model 94 his Dad had, and how they're the best rifles ever made. I told him this was his "Lucky" day and sold it to him in the same parking lot where I got it that AM: for $60.00! ! !
 
"Stock shape is another part of recoil, and this is truly subjective. A 30-30 doesn't have a lot of recoil, but the stock design of most lever actions make the recoil more uncomfortable than 308 from more modern stock designs. Even in the same weight rifles."

Interesting that you should mention that about the 30-30. I have two 94 Winchester carbines, one made back in 1911 and the later one about 1979 or 1980. The 1911 rifle when snapped to the shoulder will has the sights literally perfectly aligned to take a shot. The later version does not and I have to resort to a receiver sight to be able to use it. The newer rifle has noticeably less drop than the 1911 gun and recoil is noticeably less on the newer rifle.
Paul B.
 
I used to think that recoil didn't bother me in the slightest. This was true, until I purchased a .338 Ruger Magnum (MKII) with the all weather Zytel (aka boat paddle/skeleton) stock. I shoot 250 gr core lock rounds out of it and it kicks like I own it money and it's going to punch my arm off for failure to make good. I'm closing in on 50 years old so maybe that's the issue but....I mean...wow..it hurts for the rest of the day.

I also own a 7mm rug. mag (162 gr. rounds), a 45-70 (405 gr rounds) and an all original,, pristine 1936 .348 win mag (200 gr. silvertip rounds, which I rarely shoot because of its value) and neither of them come remotely close to the recoil I experience with my .338. I can only comfortably put about 15 or so shells through it without having to call it a day. I can shoot the 7mm mag (never understood the recoil complaints with this rifle) and the 45-70 (just a big push) all day without an issue.

I've been shooting since I was 5 years old so I don't have much of a problem putting a 3 shot group into a 50-cent piece sized group at 200 yards with the .338, even with the recoil so it doesn't impact my ability to accurate shoot, but it remains the most painful rilfe I've ever shot - as in instant, sharp pain, followed by the dull ache after nearly every round.

All that said, I've never been to Africa so there's no need for me to own or shoot any of the so-called Africa guns (if I can't eat it, I don't shoot it unless it's about to kill me) so I cannot comment on the amount of recoil one experiences with the .458 win mag or the .375 H&H, but if I were to ever have the need to purchase one, I would absolutely NOT get the skeleton stock. I've shot other, standard stock .338's and although the recoil is sharp and hard, it simply isn't as rough as my rifle. I don't have a limbsaver but if it helps you deal with the recoil more comfortably, the slip-on variety should do the trick.

It is a great shooter so I won't ever get rid of it and I never feel any recoil when I'm shooting elk so it's never an issue other than when I'm at the range. I also refuse to purchase or own a rilfe with a muzzle break - I believe that if the shooter can't handle the recoil enough to sight-in the rifle once a year while wearing a thick coat (like you would during elk season) to absorb some of the recoil, (or with a butt-pad) then it is time to buy a different rifle.
 
You sure have your share of ass kickers , weight and caliber for sure has everything to do with it , what does help is the shape of the rear stock , if the top of the rear stock is on the same line with the barrel it has a tendency to kick straight back . I'll stick with my benchrest stock for my 308 or my AR15 223 with the carry handle . The big leagues are not for me .
 
I was shooting some 300 Weatherby mag loads through a vanguard the other day, two bystanders were there and I told them to move away and wear ear protection--which they did. Even at 6 ft away they told me they could feel the concussion thump them in the chest. The felt recoil wasn't bad, but my teeth hurt later after shooting a box of reloads from the concussive report.
 
stagpanther said:
I was shooting some 300 Weatherby mag loads through a vanguard the other day, two bystanders were there and I told them to move away and wear ear protection--which they did. Even at 6 ft away they told me they could feel the concussion thump them in the chest. The felt recoil wasn't bad, but my teeth hurt later after shooting a box of reloads from the concussive report.
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My range sessions on my Weatherbys is usually 1 or 2 shots. Not because of recoil, but because of barrel preservation. The 6.5x300 WBY I hunt with has been shot less than 20 times in its life. 2 shots to zero it. 1 shot next day to check cold barrel zero. 1 shot at 400 next day to check dope sheet. 1 shot at 600 next day to verify dope sheet. Shot a few deer. Shoot it 1 shot per year to verify zero. It is a rare rifle that shoots the same clean bore as fouled bore.
 
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