A Few Specific Questions: Regarding Ar-15 & Home Defense

A rifle wouldn't make them any more proficient. It would simply mean there'd be 19 rifle rounds bouncing off and into the building she was standing in front of.
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All else being equal...yes a rifle would have been better. SO much easier to hit with. SO much more incapacitating. Just a better tool all around.

A pistol is ultra hard to use under stress.
 
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Scroll down to "Q. At what range will M193 fragment? How about M855?"
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As those rounds have a specification for penetration on a helmet/body armor, as well as other info, I am not buying that.

Repeated comments about failure to do anything as the 62 gr is too stable, instability or yaw requires it to be on the edge (and we get into the twist rates for the 5.56)

I gather the longer bullets return to that (or somewhat).

Its going to take a lot more than that to convince me.
 
RC20 said:
Scroll down to "Q. At what range will M193 fragment? How about M855?"
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As those rounds have a specification for penetration on a helmet/body armor, as well as other info, I am not buying that.

Repeated comments about failure to do anything as the 62 gr is too stable, instability or yaw requires it to be on the edge (and we get into the twist rates for the 5.56)

I gather the longer bullets return to that (or somewhat).

Its going to take a lot more than that to convince me.
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You can remain as unconvinced as you choose. I carried an M16 with M193 in Vietnam, I know what it's capable of. The reason the military is having issues today is that they're using a heavier bullet (M855) out of a shorter barrel (14-1/2" rather than 20"), so they're not getting the velocity necessary for the bullet to tumble and self-destruct except at comparatively close range. The bullet doesn't have to be "on the edge" (of what? instability?) to tumble -- it's inherent to the spire point bullet shape.

Do you understand what we're talking about when we say the M193 or M855 fragments? It's not that it shatters on impact.The fragmenting is a result of the centripetal force generated by high-speed tumbling. The rotational force is great enough (above 2700 fps velocity) that the outer shell pulls apart along the cannelure, breaking the projectile into two or more pieces going in divergent directions.

I have an AR-15 carbine with a 16" barrel. I feel content with a bunch of M193 ammo, and a couple of boxes of M855 for the off chance a zombie arrives in a vehicle and I have to shoot through the car door. But the AR-15 isn't intended for my in-home self defense -- I keep a 1911 and a 12-gauge for that. The AR-15 is for if an urban unrest spreads beyond the city limits to my neck of the woods and I'm defending against a mass assault.
 
Thats one of the problems, right there. Pistol rounds are HORRIBLE at stoping threats quickly. Thats one of the reasons so many shots are fired in LE shootings
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Pistol rounds are not as good as rifle or shogtun rounds, but that doesn't tell the story about why cops shoot so much...

For lack of a better description, police often use saturation fire. Many will shoot a threat while upright, as it falls, and after it it on the ground and until it stops moving. Some will keep shooting after that. Many shots will completely miss. If multiple officers are present, then you are apt to have multiple officers shooting the same pattern, complete with the misses.

Here is an officer who fired 12 shots at a bad guy, but only hit 3 times.
http://www.timescall.com/ci_23413393/longmont-man-police-officer-fired-35-rounds-one

Here officers fired 31 times. How many do you think hit the suspects?
https://www.wtnh.com/news/national/...-suspects-suspects-fired-34-rounds/1307084357

Hard to even explain this one...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/23/cleveland-officer-not-guilty-shot-137-times-police

Shot at 57 times, hit 9...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tlement/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d63ed166c46a

Famous case, Amadou Diallo shot at 41 times and remarkably was hit with a very high 19 times by 4 officers. Pretty amazing shooting for an unarmed target on his stoop outside his apartment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo

Here officers fired 103 times at two women delivering newspapers, striking one woman twice. Not only was it really poor shooting, but the officers were not being fired on or attacked. Another officer fired on another pickup truck 3 times and missed with all three. In both cases, it was the wrong kind of truck they were looking for... https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...nnocent-women-103-times-wont-be-fired/357771/

Here officers fired 116 rounds, striking the suspect behind the wheel of his car 16 times and shooting 4 bystanders in the process... https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/us/2-years-after-116-police-bullets-flew-few-answers.html

Here police fired 16 rounds and hit 10 people, only one of whom was the suspect. Three bystanders were shot directly by police and 6 more hit by ricochets and such... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Empire_State_Building_shooting

Officers fired 99 times and hit the suspect 25 times...
http://www.ktvu.com/news/video-rele...ds-kill-armed-robbery-suspect-hiding-in-trunk

So missing the intended target is going to strongly come into play when it comes to high round counts by police officers.
 
Here is what I know:

Bullets go through walls and it doesn't really matter what you are shooting. Shotgun pellets go through sheetrock too, especially if you are using #000 and #0000 like I am told you are supposed to. Your bullets are gonna go through walls plan and simple.

If I was expecting to be in a firefight I think this question would be simple. I'd prob just use .556 military grade FMJ. But I am talking about the distance inside of a normal household in a scenario where I would be within my legal rights to fire my gun in self defense.

In that instance, I am only interested in the bullets effect on target. It would appear that a softpoint has a greater effect on target based upon what I have seen. However what I read on various internet forms paints a different picture. Often times they say SP is bad. But it doesn't look bad at all when I see it being used in ballistics gel. So this leaves me a bit confused. I am looking for guidance :) Do people say Sp ammo is bad because they are attempting to include shooting scenarios that are outside of the home into the equation? Is there another reason that I am not aware of?


As for the TAP ammo...some one I knew and trusted a great deal told me that was the ammo of choice. I have the opportunity to get a hold of some but at .55 grains I don't see why this ammo has such a good reputation, The heavier TAP ammo looks pretty amazing... just not at .55 grains. I really don't know. This is just my own personal observation. It would appear that .55 grain softpoint ammo delivers the maximum amount of energy onto (and inside of) the target while still achieving a relatively desirable 10 to 12 inch penetration. Again this is just a personal observation and I am not very educated in the subject. I am just looking for some guidance and direction :D
 
Often times they say SP is bad. But it doesn't look bad at all when I see it being used in ballistics gel. So this leaves me a bit confused.
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The confusion is understandable, and brought about by the all two common tendency to shorten names, which can leave out vital information.

"SP is bad"..ok WHAT SP is "Bad" and why? There's a LOT of different bullets with much different construction and terminal performance under the broad heading of "SP".

There are SP "varmint" bullets and there are SP bullets built for more controlled expansion. And they can be the same weight, so just because its a 55gr bullet doesn't mean anything beyond it weighs 55gr.

I understand (but don't know for certain) that the ammo being sold as "personal defense" class stuff is not loaded with "varmint" bullets. They are supposedly loaded with a more controlled expansion kind.

I know for a fact and personal observation over decades what "varmint" bullets do, and don't do, out of .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, and .22-250. There's about nothing better when your live target is 5-50lbs. When your target is larger, things change.

A 55gr SP meant for shooting woodchucks will do what it does on bigger things (like people) but what it does isn't certain to be enough to stop a determined attack (with a single round). It MIGHT, it probably will, BUT, its not certain in the way a round that penetrates deeper is "certain".

Penetration in gel is a method for ROUGHLY comparing performance, but real people are not gel.

Penetration is the bug-a-boo with a lot of people today. Probably because too many people live too close together....they're worried about the neighbors, and rightly so, in many cases. HOWEVER, there's no free lunch, and its nearly impossible to make a bullet that will NOT go through walls but will go through people, deeply enough, and do it under every possible real world set of circumstances.

That bullet (whatever caliber & speed) that meets all the "recommended" penetration requirements, can (and has) failed in the real world when the specific circumstances require it to do more than the stated requirements.

I keep coming back to the 9mm JHP that "failed" in the Miami Shootout. It did everything it was spec'd to do. BUT additional real world factors changed things enough that what it was spec'd to do wasn't enough, that day.

If gel test performance of a certain bullet is enough to make you feel good, remember to get that EXACT SAME BULLET or you won't get that exact same performance. A bullet built to take out a deer, (or a man) can be the same size weight and speed as one built to take out a coyote or a prairie dog. They might even LOOK identical. Make sure you know what you've got, and what's its best at.
 
Okay so...

Since I have posted here I have been doing my own research. A little bit every night. I don't feel like I have really gotten an answer in this thread so my conclusions are as follows. I hope this helps someone else someday. I am also putting my conclusions up for review just in case, ya know... i miss something.

I think the TAP ammo is a nope. I am really kinda surprised because the guy who told me about that ammo was a badass special forces guy. Even 9.5 inches penetration of the 60 gain leaves allot of "what if'" to consider. There are some really big dudes out there.


I think the winners are the 55 grain Hornady GMX HP and the 55 grain Federal Bonded SP. 16 and 20 inches respectively with a great wound channel in both cases. Since I am not worried about over penetration (because it's an AR-15 and bullets simply go through walls period) I feel as though these two rounds do the most damage on target. They are ofc expensive... which means other people probably know about these rounds too. I will try to locate these rounds or I will try and find rounds that have somewhat comparable ballistics.
 
If you've ever seen a FMJ wound that produced only a pencil sized hole, you'll understand why FMJ is actually a poor choice. FMJ is REQUIRED for military use by international agreement. I'm NOT in a military conflict and I can use a more effective bullet design.
I don't need a bullet that gives full penetration but I do want that bullet to make a large and very noticeable(read that as PAINFUL) wound. A varmint bullet hitting a human arm @ 10' will do that. A fringe hit with a fast expanding bullet may stop the aggression while a FMJ may just increase the effort requiring more hits to end an attack.
 
44 AMP might you have a recommendation?
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The only recommendation I will make is to evaluate your personal situation, keeping in mind that there's no free lunch. (meaning that every advantage also has a disadvantage)

And decide what best fits your situation and priorities.

Do you live in a crackerbox, surrounded by other crackerboxes, to the sides. Above? Below?? Are there 600 people within a half mile radius??

Or are you in a concrete walled ranch house, surrounded by orchards 1/4 mile from your nearest neighbor, 30+ yards different in altitude?? Or something else?

My house has a maximum straight line distance of a bit under 40 feet. I live in the middle of farm country, miles from town and some distance from neighbors. My "home defense" guns are a 12ga coach gun (and no matter what the experts say, I'm comfortable believing a full load of birdshot to the face will go a long way to changing an attacker's mind. Backed up with several loaded handguns. Several different rifles also available, but I've got better stuff for use inside the house.

Your situation is certainly somewhat different. Maybe completely different. What you have to consider is what is most important, and what drawbacks you can live with. Opening doors, navigating turns, hallways, etc, long guns have a drawback over a handgun. Handguns are more difficult to aim than long guns. lots and lots of factors to consider, there is no one "best" for everyone. Outside the house? Carbine over pistol for me, IF I have the choice.
 
My head hurts. Is this Groundhog Day? Might as well make this post completely useless and say something stupid like,”Getting some popcorn , here we go again”.
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LOL, hopefully the OP will just be smart enough to vet the information by getting real engineering reports instead of youtube and fansites.
 
Pretty much all of the name brand defensive loads in 5.56 are going to be decent. (I try to ignore the gimmick loads.) TAP and many bonded soft points should meet the FBI 12-18in gel criteria and provide respectable wound channels.
The 55grain TAP URBAN load does look like it consistently underperforms in penetration.

I would recommend sticking to rounds that meet the 12-18in gel metric. It's not perfect, but it is a good baseline.
 
The 55grain TAP URBAN load does look like it consistently underperforms in penetration.
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The idea with that loading was to reduce penetration. The TAP line has both barrier blind AND minimized penetration offerings. Just gotta pick the one that suits your needs
 
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