A Few Scenarios for Concealed Weapon Permit Holders....

The correct answer to both scenarios is the same:
First, know your state's laws.
Second, were you in fear for you life or serious bodily harm or someone else's. If the answer is yes, lethal force is justified (in most states).

ALways call 911 first. But in both scenarios (given the beating continuing in the first one) I believe it is clear that the answer is yes.
In the first scenario your best response would be to call 911, report the location of the incident, description of the assailant, victim and yourself. Tell the 911 operator that you are armed and that you're certain that if you don't stop him, he will beat the other guy to death. Holler at the assailant, telling him to "stop you're killing him, if you don't stop I will be forced to defend his life" (remember 911 calls are recorded). If the beating continues, shoot until the threat is removed. If the assailant complies, don't shoot. If he runs, don't chase. If he stays, order him to lie down and wait for the police. Make sure you give the dispatcher your description including what you are armed with so the responding officers will know who is who. When the officers arrive, don't move, listen to and closely follow their commands.

In the second scenario, call 911, give the dispatcher the same information as above. Walk up to the dog and if he doesn't turn his attention to you, position yourself so you can shoot him in the head from above without hitting anyone else. Shoot. If you can't get a clear head shot, shoot c.o.m. from above (remember your safety rules: Know your target and what's beyond).

In general, if you or someone else is in fear of death or serious bodily injury, lethal force is justified. But, you need to know the specifics of your state's laws.
 
As pretty much everyone one else had said, the first scenario is a no draw situation. The attack has stopped and the attacker is fleeing. Just be a good witness and help the guy. Now the situation changes if the attacker does not flee, but ends up attacking you. Lets say that there is a disparity of force (either you are elderly or the attacker is much stronger). when do you become justified in drawing a weapon?

As for the dog, I think shooting the dog may have been justified. Even after kicking it really hard, it did not let the girl go. Forget about traumatizing the girl. The dog is already doing that. You need to make the dog stop before doing more damage. You could shoot the dog from point blank range (straight down) and not risk hitting any bystanders. If you shot it in the spine, you would most likely paralzye it and stop the attack immediately. Furthermore, the dog could be checked for rabies and the girl would not have to undergo the painful treatment for rabies unnecessarily. Since the dog ran away, it could not be tested. Even though I am a dog lover, I would not risk trying to wrestle the dog away from the girl and risk my own hide. Dogs that atack humans are bad news.

Dialing 911 is for after the fact. You need to stop the attacks first. If you have time to do so before due to the distance, then do so to get help as quickly as possible.
 
In GA, I can use deadly force to stop a forceable felony.....when a buttwhooping among the particpants becomes a forceable felony vs a misdemeanor assault is hard to determine. You might also have a tough time discerning whether the guy losing at the time isn't actually the robber who had the tables turned on him. I wouldn't do it....can't save the whole world.

As for number 2, that's a hard call. I would have kicked the hell out of that dog until it let go. If after about three kicks, it didn't let go I would have flipped it over on its back to see that that would make it let go. If not, I would have crushed its windpipe with my knee until it was dead. Usually, flipping a dog on its back puts a dog in a submissive pose that they generally don't like. Now if it let go, I would have dragged it off and shot it.

New
 
Read your state self defense statute. I don't know what state you're in, but most states generally say something like you can defend yourself with force equal to what your assailant is bringing. For instance, if your assailant has only fists, you can use only fists. If you bring a weapon, now YOU are the assailant and he is the defender. If he has a weapon, however, this CAN be considered deadly force and you may respond IN DEFENSE with deadly force. If he has a knife, you can use a knife, pointy stick, or gun and are equally justified.

The KEY language is that in order to use DEADLY weapons in self defense you MUST BE IN FEAR OF IMMEDIATELY SERIOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH. This is all very subjective. If an old woman attacks a professional boxer with her bare hands or even a purse, the boxer is probably NOT justified in using a weapon. However, if the boxer attacks the old woman with his bare hands, she probably IS justified in using a deadly weapon in defense because of her reasonable fear of immediately serious bodily harm or death.

Now, the level of defense you can apply to YOURSELF is also transfered on other people. If you came upon the boxer attacking the old woman, YOU are justified in believing that SHE is about to suffer IMMEDIATE SERIOUS BODILY HARM OR DEATH. Hence you could step in to defend her. But what if SHE is the assailant and HE is the defender...? Or what about a domestic violence where BOTH parties are aggressors?

There are soooo many variables in your story and I can't address all the possibilities. Just read your statute and keep in mind that situations are not always as they seem. Imagine if the mugger was actually an under cover police officer arresting a sex offender and the sex offender was resisting. You roll up and draw down on a cop, who justifiably shoots YOU in HIS self defense, or his buddy (that you didn't see) shoots YOU in self defense.

If it were ME, I would probably take a position of cover, try to analyse what's going on, call the police with my cell phone, and if I could figure out whether I could help I would and I'd only draw my gun if absolutely necessary and I was 100% sure of the actors (eg who is the victim).
 
NV resident here, FWIW.

Senario number one was handled well by you IMO. My state allows CCWers to protect citizens in their immediate contact. My reaction, if carrying would've still been very close to what you did. I would've rushed in addressing the attacker to stop, and my firearm would've been out in a low ready position. Shout, "STOP! I'm armed!" or something like that to declare your presense and intent. The important thing it to maintain your distance to start. Once the attacker is aware of your presense and your firearm, he will probably do one of three things:

1. Stop and run/comply with your "lay down" order.
2. Stop and engage you
3. Continue with his beat down

Keep your distance so you can clearly identify what he is going to do. If he does #2 and starts toward you, you still have time to make your presentation to target and fire. #3 would likely have the same result as #2. If he does #1, you now have no need to fire. Get a description and be a witness.

Side note for this senario: I would likely engage BG before calling 911. Just me personally, but when you come up on something like this, you gotta react immediatly. I would probably be shouting "Someone call 911" as I run up to the BG, but taking two minutes to talk with a dispatcher might get this victim killed.

Senario number two would leave my gun in it's holster. Dogs on the attack are very fast moving tiny targets, and I would hate to miss and nail this little girl. This is the type of senario for which I carry a knife. This dog would have had all kinds of knife wounds in his neck while I was beating the holy bejezzies out of it.


I also think it's time to find a new running path... :D
 
Senario #1:
Forget about, keep jogging.
Call the cops when you get a chance if it makes feel better.
You don't know the particulars of the altercation...you don't know who attacked whom or for what reason.

Senario #2:
Shoot the dog.

Ignore "advice" like this:
If you dont carry a cell phone you should not carry a gun.
Click to expand...
:barf:
 
A CCW licensee recently killed a pit bull that was attacking a girl in a town near me. He was lauded as a hero and not charged.
Click to expand...

According to the description of the event in the original post, this would not have been acceptable. There were bystanders. Perhaps, With few or no bystanders with the situation just right - where one could stand over the girl, shoot away from her upwads and into the dogs chest, maybe, just maybe this could be an acceptable risk as a last resort, but that's a lot of maybies. I'm sure the CCW holder was lauded as a hero, but things could have gone quite badly with one mistake or a slight movement of the dog. Sounds risky to me.
 
kgpcr: If you dont carry a cell phone you should not carry a gun.
Click to expand...

One of the more rediculous things I have read on this forum in awhile. What does a cell phone have to do with blowing away some puke that is trying to kill you?

Does this mean that before cell phones were prevelant (say 15-20 years ago), that no one should have carried a gun?
 
It's having a quick(er) way to call the authorities.

Besides, if you have to draw and don't shoot, you better call the police before the BG does and makes you out to be the bad guy.
 
"you are not engaged in self-defense there is a good chance you could get into legal trouble. While a lot of folks may frown upon this sometimes it's best to just call 911."

Have you ever listened to a 911 call of someone being attacked by a dog. I have, it is ugly. I'm not going to wait 20 min. for a response. And you couldn't either and call yourself a man.

If he is trained and you pull a gun, he is going after you. Now you have saved the victim and it IS self defense. If he is a common ordinary mean dog, a gunshot to the ground will send him away, but now we have to catch him and cut off his head for the Rabies test, or the little girl has to take the shots. Or did you get a chance to read the tag on his collar? If I shoot the dog, I'm going to shoot him several times through the heart lungs and spine. No wounded dog. Ace


Ace
 
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