A different discussion on OC hand guns- ( worth the read )

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WANT A LCR 22LR

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I haven't seen this come up on this and other boards.

Do the people that advocate OC make a very visible display or something more subtle?

For example, a ivory gripped stainless / nickel plated hand gun in a too small holster with nickel plated ammo clipped to the side would be much more visible than a 2" rubber gripped snub in a holster that only lets the grip show.

A very visible display would cause more looks and points than a discrete gun that just happens to be worn outside clothing.

Also there seem to be two reasons some OC, these need to be separated, one is the visual image presented to others and the other is easy access to a weapon. For me, easy access is more importiant than sending a visual message.

For the record, I have a LCR in a discrete black holster, have gone OC a couple of times to a industrial enviroment where having stuff clipped to ones belt is common. Only a couple of people have noticed, and then only after talking to me for a while.
 
Also there seem to be two reasons some OC, these need to be separated...
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There are many reasons to carry guns openly, concealed, with and without government paper work, in large calibers, small calibers, et cetera. Reasons don't need to be separated. They need to be understood.
 
I see two reasons for OC.

One, its its simply a tool on the belt of a person who understands why its there and when its appropriate to have it there....

Two, its something that some who seem to crave attention, use to do so, and usually in an inappropriate environment.

I understand and can see the first, and dont have a problem with it. I'm not someone with a need for attention, so I dont really get that part. Seems to me, in that respect, its used more for shock value and "look at me" reasons, than anything else. Has nothing to do with "rights".

Dont get me wrong, if you want to do it, have at it. I'd much rather have someone else around to draw attention away from me.

I dont believe having to get a permit to carry a gun is lawful, and I dont think you should need to worry about where its covered or not. I just think that you also have to consider where you are and the fact that, while you may not be a threat to anyone, others may not perceive you as such, and you do create somewhat of a problem amoungst those who are no comfortable with your display.
 
Reasons don't need to be separated. They need to be understood.
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How can the reasons ( for OC ) be understood if you are unwilling to separately identify them?

This follows a line of thinking I've seen on other gun boards where the question is posed, " Why do you own a gun?" Some give specific reasons like protection , hunting , collecting. Others simply state, " Because I can" and get belligerent when pressed for a actual reason. This shows that the person answering can't justify what they do and are making random decisions.

"Because I can" is like going to the boss and saying " I want a raise " and then when the boss asks "What have you done to deserve a raise?" the reply is a indignant , " That isn't important, I want a raise". Or someone taking their car to a garage and saying " It is broken " then getting mad at the garage when they ask "What is not working?" "You are a garage, it's broken, fix it"

I don't believe having to get a permit to carry a gun is lawful, and I dont think you should need to worry about where its covered or not.
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On the permit to carry concealed, in PA it is a simple fill out a form, mail in a couple of $ and if your clean enough to own a hand gun the paperwork shown up in the mail. Pretty painless, the permit system exists so those who cannot legally posses/ conceal a fire arm can be prosecuted for not having a permit. If this mechanism didn't exist and a robber was jailed for having a hidden fire arm , someone in the gun community would be up in arms that a citizen was jailed for possession a fire arm.

OC is legal in PA, CC requires a permit. It seems pretty apparent that a CC allows someone to sneak a gun into a situation and they need a background check to assure they are less likely to be a threat than a desperate criminal intending to use a gun for a robbery or worse.

OC instantly identifies that person as someone that needs to be watched as the possession of a weapon identifies them as a possible threat. ( Note, I said POSSIBLE not ACTUAL ) It seems that the OC crowd fails to realize this very vital point. If they don't understand this point, why is a permit required for CC and not OC? ( at least in PA and probably in other states as well ) Is not the reason some give for OC is that they want a visible display that they are armed?


I just think that you also have to consider where you are and the fact that, while you may not be a threat to anyone, others may not perceive you as such, and you do create somewhat of a problem amongst those who are no comfortable with your display.
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I agree with this statement, it is similar to not smoking when a bunch of people are standing at a bus stop waiting for the bus to arrive. While outdoor smoking is generally legal, there are times when it is courteous thing to do is not light up.

Edit, fixed typos
 
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the permit system exists so those who cannot legally posses/ conceal a fire arm can be prosecuted for not having a permit
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For whatever reason they are not allowed to have a firearm, possession alone would be cause for prosecution. The permit is really just a worthless document in that respect, and simply another form of gun registration and population control.

I believe a simpler, more effective, and somewhat more constitutional (not that I believe DL's or ID's are constitutional) method, would be to mark the drivers license or ID of those who are not permitted to possess them, instead of requiring majority of us who are not restricted to ask permission.

It seems pretty apparent that a CC allows someone to sneak a gun into a situation and they need a background check to assure they are less likely to be a threat than a desperate criminal intending to use a gun for a robbery or worse.
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The lack of permit doesnt bother the criminal, and only controls the law abiding.

Carry permits, like a drivers license, are only tools of control of the law abiding, and used as punishment, for those who are deemed to be rule breakers. You loose your "privilege" if you dont follow the rules. In both respects, they have made a right, a privilege, and we allow it to be done.
 
I agree. If they want to regulate or restrict someone, let it be people with a criminal record and not the lawful. I did not get the permit. Either I behave myself appropriately, or God loves me, or something, because I have been around a whole lot of officers in the last 25 yrs or so with my weapon, and have never had a weapons charge :)

One cop was going to unload my 1911 and pull it out of the holster and I told him not to, and still live! I said Sir, if you're unfamilier with that type of weapon (1911 cond. 1) you would be wise to leave it loaded in the holster for safetys sake and not mess with it. He listened! Young guy full o beans, God loves me! I must have had the right tone because he put it down. :D
 
Open Carry

I'm not as interested in open carry as concealed. That being said I favor open carry for two reasons. First, living in the SunShine State makes staying concealed difficult and open display or printing is trouble with the law. Second, it is easier to put your self-defense tool into use when you can access it easier.

Here in Florida wearing a covering garment such as a photographer's vest or carrying in a fanny-pack is just about the same as carrying openly. You pretty much stand out in the crowd. The fanny-pack works for me 'cause I'm old and fat. Everybody expects old. fat guys to wear fanny-packs. But the draw from a fanny-pack is slow.
 
Living in a non-CC state I have no choice but to carry OC. I do so discreetly out of respect for those around me.
 
Living in a non-CC state I have no choice but to carry OC. I do so discreetly out of respect for those around me.
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This illustrates a problem not usually not addressed, different states have different laws. In the case of this poster I agree that discrete OC is acceptable when state laws prohibit CC as there is a level of practicality here. However I'll still hold fast that blatant or openly agressive displays are unacceptable.

And it raises the question, what is the line between CC and OC? How much of the gun must be showing to be considered OC? If someone is wearing a holster on their belt then puts on a coat is this now considered CC? In a OC state must this person now strap the gun to the outside of the coat? Is a holster with a flap considered CC? Is a non gun shaped holster ( cell phone holder ) considered CC?

So many laws, so many regs :confused:
 
Here in MS open carry is legal. But the state SC has stated in rulings that a holster is considered concealed, so a firearms permit is necessary for practical OC.
 
I haven't seen this come up on this and other boards.

Do the people that advocate OC make a very visible display or something more subtle?

For example, a ivory gripped stainless / nickel plated hand gun in a too small holster with nickel plated ammo clipped to the side would be much more visible than a 2" rubber gripped snub in a holster that only lets the grip show.

A very visible display would cause more looks and points than a discrete gun that just happens to be worn outside clothing.

Also there seem to be two reasons some OC, these need to be separated, one is the visual image presented to others and the other is easy access to a weapon. For me, easy access is more importiant than sending a visual message.

For the record, I have a LCR in a discrete black holster, have gone OC a couple of times to a industrial enviroment where having stuff clipped to ones belt is common. Only a couple of people have noticed, and then only after talking to me for a while.
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I'll start by saying that your view, as well as your experience with open carry appear to be limited.

There are a lot of reasons for open carry.

One is comfort in hot weather. A holster IWB in hot weather can become uncomfortable after being there all day, every day. Open carry is more comfortable for many people.

Another reason is the increase in carry options. Larger handguns are usually easier to shoot well, and offer increased mag capacity and power, bur are harder to conceal. When they're concealed in hot weather, they're even MORE uncomfortable in many cases on an all day, every day basis.

When concealing, a handgun becomes an object of heavy consideration in the way one dresses. Pants are bought in larger sizes, cover garments are considered, various concealment holsters are tried, and the list goes on and on. Smaller handguns offer the best options, but also offer less advantage if they're ever truly needed.

When open carrying, a handgun is just another tool on your belt, like a cell phone and/or Leatherman tool. Wear what you want, and the OC'd handgun can come along without any trouble at all. No matter how big, or how small the handgun may be, it'll fit in it's holster without any "bulges".

That said, there are "occasions" where CC is certainly the best choice. I was obligated to go to a birthday party for my 13 Y/O niece yesterday, and while her dad is an LEO, I still "always" carry. I stuck a J-frame IWB at 1:00, inside my tucked in western shirt, and no one in the house full of kids and parents ever knew it was there. I'm not sure I could have gotten away with doing that with my G23, but the G23 does offer higher capacity, more power, and is a bit easier to shoot quickly and accurately. If ever really needed, the G23 is a better option, but I usually open carry it.

Daryl
 
And it raises the question, what is the line between CC and OC? How much of the gun must be showing to be considered OC? If someone is wearing a holster on their belt then puts on a coat is this now considered CC? In a OC state must this person now strap the gun to the outside of the coat? Is a holster with a flap considered CC? Is a non gun shaped holster ( cell phone holder ) considered CC?
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In Taxconsin, the gun must be easily visible. Put on a coat that covers the gun, you are in violation and will be arrested. I think a flap holster is CC too because the gun is not easily visible. But oddly enough, a flap holster is NOT good enough for transporting a gun if even a glimpse of the gun is visible. Law states that the gun must be 100% enclosed, unloaded and inaccessible when transported by motor vehicle. That includes; car, truck, bus, motorcycle, ATV, tractor, boat, etc. However, you can have a loaded open carry gun on horseback, on a peddle bike or paddled boat (no engine and no trolling motor present).

Oh, the law used to be that you couldn't even lean a gun against the tire, put it on the hood, etc or you were in violation of having a loaded, uncased or accessible gun "in a motor vehicle". How next to the tire was ever defined as "in the vehicle" is beyond me, but that's politicians for you! You would have to put the gun down next to the car, open the truck, get out the case, unload the gun, put it in the case then put the closed case back in the truck. I think they changed that, but maybe not.

I wouldn't doubt that Illinois is similar or even more draconian -- but that's just a guess on my part.
 
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Do the people that advocate OC make a very visible display or something more subtle?
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I don't know. I carry either a full size Glock or full size (dark duracoated) 1911 in a Serpa Holster when I open carry. I don't know what people think about it, or even if they care. No one has ever said even "boo" to me about it. I OC about 20% of the time I carry.

It has crossed my mind more than once that some people might think I am the police, simply based on some things strangers do say to me. I also am large, dress decently, shave and have a military hair cut (because I am in the military). I have never done a thing to make people believe that I am with the police.

For family events with lots of strange children around I do normally carry concealed. But then so do a lot of other family members too. :)
 
I'm very subtle when I OC. Who wants to raise alarm or get arrested? When one OC's, you must realize that people are watching and do see. Think how the report would sound. "Officer, there's a man with a gun"...What's he doing?..."well, he walked into our reading time with the kids in the library and started at us with his hands on his hips:...(spooky)...Or. "Officer , there's a man with a gun"...WHat's he doing?... "Walking away from where I am, I don't think he even knows I'm here"

It's nice to excercise ones rights, but even nicer to use ones head.
 
It's nice to excercise ones rights, but even nicer to use ones head.
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True, rights don't take into account when the activity is prudent at all times.

One has the right to free speech but I bet those here would not walk up to a gang banger and tell them you are going to take over their turf. . .
 
However I'll still hold fast that blatant or openly agressive displays are unacceptable.
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Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I do believe that your location and situation can have some influence on the "acceptability".

In a "perfect world" it should not matter if one OCs or CCs; or both simultaneously.

Just yesterday I had returned to a boat put in, with a stainless Colt Delta Elite worn at three o'clock. The guy unloading his boat was wearing a Ruger .44 mag single action in a cowboy rig with a tie down strap, including the "shiny shells" along the back of his rig. There was another family, read with small children, watching having a picnic on the bank. A guy with a large framed stainless S&W revolver on his hip. See the same on a regular basis. No fuss, no muss.

Saw bear that day, saw sheep, goat, moose, and many other smaller "critters". Here in Alaska I would say that there is a different mindset than a lot of the lower 49.

Just because you may not feel comfortable with "blatant" openly carrying does not make it "incorrect". There are places and people in these places that are proponents of OC and for some it is a way of life; viewed as a tool, and not in and of itself possessing "aggressive" qualities.
 
Just because you may not feel comfortable with "blatant" openly carrying does not make it "incorrect". There are places and people in these places that are proponents of OC and for some it is a way of life; viewed as a tool, and not in and of itself possessing "aggressive" qualities.
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Exactly right.

There is nothing "agressive" about open carry, unless the carrier chooses to make it aggressive. It is no different than concealed carry in that respect; it's the same tool riding in a holster either way.

Daryl
 
I'm in the "open carry for easy access" mindset. When in I'm the backwoods of AK or WA, I carry a revolver or shotgun openly because I have family to think about. Keeping the gun in the open means a quicker draw. Plus, I can carry a bigger, better gun that way; no worry about having to hide it. I don't do it because I have something to prove or because I have a political chip on my shoulder.

I'm also all about holding myself to the laws and social etiquette of where I am. I live in or visit both WA and AK, and while both are OC/CC states, the expectations & fears of average people (on the street or on the trail) are completely different. Alaska is way more laid back.
 
It depends on the situation as to what I carry. 99% of the time I carry the gun that I feel is most effective in the most effective means of carry possible. I can only afford my Taurus PT-145 stainless steel compact at the moment so that is what I carry 99% of the time. I carry it in a Fobus Paddle Holster with passive retention. So, because of the fact that part of my gun is stainless steel and most of the gun is not covered by the holster, I think it tends to get noticed a tad more than an all black gun carried in a holster that would cover it more. To me, though, effectiveness is the prime importance. And I feel my combination is the most effective for self protection that I have available to me. The only drawback my Taurus has is that the only ammo suitable for self defense that it will feed reliably is Hornady XTP.

Now, the other 1% of the time I will be going to an open carry picnic or some other special event. There is a cowboy and indian themed birthday party coming up for instance and I am really looking forward to that! Then I will wear my 1851 Navy repo in a leather holster that I got in Iraq (originally for my issued M-9 but it fits the revolver almost perfectly). In that case I choose the gun simply as a conversion starter. The holster is hilarious - it has the info of the maker in Iraq pressed into the leather on back, but the thumb strap snap is "The Great Seal of the State of Oklahoma!" :D

When I do carry the 1851 Navy, it is fully loaded and capped in the event it is needed for self defense. I won't carry an unloaded gun.

In an environment where its not the norm or easily accepted, its aggressive.
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It is really sad to hear such comments coming from the "pro-gun", "pro-2A" group.
 
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