A Definitive study of Annealing

It's not shooting the range gods, it's sacrificing brass to them at their grass alter that seems to occur without the consent of the donator. I've been in a couple of situations where the word "tithe" applied, as a good 10% of ejected brass vanished. In one instance it neared 30% as the uncut grass in front of the firing points was known to harbor chiggers and nobody wanted to trade their bites for brass. Someone thought to include a string on the next outing to that location, but that could just throw them around, so socks pulled up over the trouser cuffs and sprayed with bug repellent was still the SOP of the day.


Hounddawg,

That's what I was recalling. I hadn't looked at the current page, but had seen the original YouTube video from a year and a half ago and recalled they were committing to analyzing individual cases. Glad they've kept that up. Of course, this is part of what you are paying for with the machine.

The cost is prohibitive for the person not seeking match or benchrest perfection, but only to cut the cost of shooting down. It is also too slow for the volume shooter. Persons participating in tactical matches that emphasize speed shooting and volume of fire are not going to want to wait for it. Something like the Giraud machine will be more appealing for them, even if they can't get absolute perfection from it.

There is room for more work in the area. Something fast, economical and precise is the goal. If the makers of AMP work out an automatic feed system, they will have addressed a big limitation of their equipment for volume shooters.
 
@ RC 20

I am still debating on whether the purchase of a AMP would be worth it myself. If I do it won't be until the end of the year so I can do some more of my own informal testing and might decide to build/buy a new gun instead :)

Sorry if I am boring some or most here, I realize that this is a subject that is only of interest to a few. For 99% of the shooters/reloaders here any annealing machine would be about as worthless as teats on a boar hog as we say down here. Spending that money on powder, bullets etc would do them a whole lot more good in my opinion. Bench rest, and long range people are the only one who really need to care about neck tensions. Well not to forget the exotic cartridge guys who pay $$$$ for their cases. Other than those groups no one needs to spend money on this or any other annealing machine.
 
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It depends. If you spend money on Lapua brass, you may well find it pays for itself by tripling the no-split life of your first 500 cases. That assumes you're not hotrodding it to head expanding pressures. Mind you, that's probably enough rounds to shoot out 3 or 4 barrels, so you do have to be shooting pretty regularly.
 
Definitive always scares me to death. Someone that *Thinks* they are 100% right are dangerous since there is no room in their heads for any problems that might arise...

As for Amp being the 'Only' annealer that can do things 'Definitively', just plain BS of the highest order, you need hip waders for that pile of steaming statement...

That was what the microstructure thread was about, figuring out EXACTLY what the case was doing, being able to see for yourself what was working, and what wasn't working.

Doesn't matter what induction unit you are using as long as it's powerful enough to anneal the neck/shoulder before the case head gets too hot.
Over powered units NOT run 'Flat Out' so it's consistent.

The ONLY question after you have the power applied to the case IS TIMING...

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I don't use metal polish on the cases before annealing, I wet wash cases because it's fast,and I dry cases, either air time (evaporation) or by throwing them in dry media to dry them and polish them up a little.

Guys going stright to reloading might want to wait on the dry polish until after annealing & sizing simply to get the case lube off to avoid dry tumble twice.
A clean case is pretty important to annealing times, as stated before by several...

Now, no one that doesn't volume clean and QUALIFY (case necks) probably won't know this...
Damp cases make proximity sensors freak completely out, using proximity sensors sensitive enough to detect Non-ferrous cases are SERIOUSLY freaked out by moisture.
And it's not just one brand of sensor, I have four or five brands that freaked out using proximity sensor & PLC controls on automated equipment...
No moisture is fine, if it doesn't freak out the neck qualifier, then it anneals just fine, really consistently.

What I can't seem to get across is these electrical-magnetic induction units all work on the same basic electrical principals, they all work the same way, no matter who puts them together, you at home!even from surplus parts, or the larger companies selling them.
They are pretty simple, work the same way, and once you have the power output, applied to the case, it's just a matter of time, how long to cook...

Hardness testing is an INDICATOR of what the brass is doing, micrographs can show you what the brass is doing, but it's up to you to decide what what you want and how far to go...
 
Something fast, economical and precise is the goal. If the makers of AMP work out an automatic feed system, they will have addressed a big limitation of their equipment for volume shooters.
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looks like they are addressing the auto feeder issue. The auto feeder will be a separate standalone component and you will be able to upgrade your older units for around $300 give or take and have the option of either buying a unit with or without a autofeed depending on your budget and needs

https://www.facebook.com/AMPannealing

also according to the AMP people they can not only vary the time but the power. The machine can either use less power and more time or more power and less time depending on the case

https://www.facebook.com/AMPanneali...930181203902/1707163749580542/?type=3&theater

I found using the Annealeeze that I prefer the common unregulated pencil flame torch over the "swirl" flame regulated torches simply because I can pinpoint the cone of the flame right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Using the inner point of the flame to "aim" at the case seems to give me a much better heat flow.

I am still looking for a regulated pencil flame torch so I can have the best of both worlds
 
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someone mentioned annealing with a candle earlier in this thread, well they tried it and tested it. Conclusion was you would not change the brass but you would burn the heck out of fingers
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One annealer posted a u-Tube video using the 'hold the case in the hand' method, about half way through the video the hand disappeared. That video reminded me of the reloader and black smith in the shade of 'A' tree. The horse shoe was hot for the black smith and it did not take the reloader long to look at it.

F. Guffey
 
In the metallurgy business we sometimes picked up warm stuff. If we weren't careful we dropped it and said "wow that got hot fast " :rolleyes:
I will go through the article but in all the comments about annealing much of it is done without the reloader's understanding of metallurgy or ways of measuring important things. For most of you I still think that the Norma method I have previously quoted is fine for the great majority of reloaders the rest is word games and wishful thinking ! Have fun ! :)
 
Sorry if I am boring some or most here, I realize that this is a subject that is only of interest to a few. For 99% of the shooters/reloaders here any annealing machine would be about as worthless as teats on a boar hog as we say down here. Spending that money on powder, bullets etc would do them a whole lot more good in my opinion. Bench rest, and long range people are the only one who really need to care about neck tensions. Well not to forget the exotic cartridge guys who pay $$$$ for their cases. Other than those groups no one needs to spend money on this or any other annealing machine.
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My take on boring people is you can read the thread tittle, if not interested you don't have to read. Pretty simple.

If you read and make snarky comments my response is the same, not interested in snarky, contribute something, (good or bad or even funny) to the discussion or keep quiet
 
Lets see, the candle thing works, wear leather gloves, problem solved. At no cost to you either!

Well its slow and ........
 
Supercub99 pointed out that you get a low cost food dryer and your wet case problem is solved at low cost and totally effective.
 
For most of you I still think that the Norma method I have previously quoted is fine for the great majority of reloaders the rest is word games and wishful thinking !
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By Norma method do you mean put the cases in a tray of water up to the shoulder then heat with a torch tilll the neck glows and tip over ?

I would have to agree. I have some .308 Lapua Palma which is damn near geriatric in dog years. I always used the drill and socket routine on them every 5th loading, never had a neck split issue but loose primer pockets have taken a toll

Even perfect annealing alone will not work miracles on accuracy it is just one step in the recipe. If you need or want a perfect case it is worth pursuing, if not then it is of dubious value and a waste of time and money.

Just my opinion as always
 
Ok, funny. I know grinding makes things hot, been there and done that.

So my wife has an aluminum lid she wants a knob off, rivet type thing on the back side.

I grid off the plume and garb the knob and third degree burns alarms. Ok, hand into the water dish on the porch , cold water from faucet.

Hmm, aluminum, fast heat transmission, grinding, who knew?
 
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Lets see, the candle thing works, wear leather gloves, problem solved. At no cost to you either!
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You failed to understand the fable of the black smith and the rleoader.

The smith said to the reloader: Hot, ain't it? And the reloader said to the to smith: "No, it just don't take me long to look at it". And then there are rules and factors, if a reloader had rules he went by he would never consider the candle.

F. Guffey
 
if a reloader had rules he went by he would never consider the candle
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long before I ever reloaded my first round I had a firm rule about burning the tar out of my fingers - just say no to blisters
 
Ahhh well, easier said than done.

Working on a Compressor can one day and had not clue how hot the internal heater made the entry port.

3rd degree burns except some quick thinking about how cold return suction is and a nice cold place to put the hand.

If I could outthink the world I would never have an problems.
 
well yesterday I got my Brownells catalog in and they have a coupon for 100 bucks off with free shipping for big orders. I looked long and hard at the AMP, but have still decided to hold off awhile longer. I have decided my money is best spent on bullets, powder and cases to work on technique and wind skills than on fancier equipment at this stage. After 30 more rounds down range this morning decided what I have is good enough for right now.


I will go out on a limb and say that the better the SD and ES the tighter the groups at 600. Nothing scientific but the cases I have been shooting have had three trips through the Anealeeze and on are their 5th loading and still getting decent groups with very little vertical stringing. Only had one flyer this morning and one major outlier in my velocity data. They were on the same string so I have a feeling that the outlier caused the flyer
 
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Sometimes you gotta' take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask yourself if you're not getting too crazy about reloading. For example, I refuse to cut powder kernels. I'm just not going to do it, especially since I compete only in local matches. I don't weight sort primers either. Therefore, I don't need a scale with much more precision than .02gr because that's roughly the weight of a kernel of Varget. I can load to plus/minus one kernel using moderately priced equipment along with an investment of my time as well as some carefully honed operating techniques to make my equipment function reliably.

Likewise, my home made "Skip Design" torch based automatic annealer provides all the precision I need. I only reload two calibers. I clean and anneal them every cycle. After some experimenting and calibrating I have settled on a annealing time for each caliber which works well. Although my brass may be slightly harder or softer than some other shooter, I believe my cases come out of my machine at a consistent hardness and I also believe consistency is more important than absolute hardness. I'm not a metallurgist, but I have had significant formal training in metallurgy as part of my University education. So I have a pretty good feel for what it takes to properly anneal cartridge brass. I no longer count reloading cycles and my Lapua brass seems to last forever, or at least until the primer pockets wear out.

If I were in the commercial annealing business, then an expensive machine calibrated at the factory along with factory data allowing me to select a time/temp setting appropriate for a whole range of calibers and neck thicknesses might be worthwhile. A commercial business couldn't afford to do much experimenting and offer annealing services at a marketable price point. Being able to consult a chart and dial in a good annealing setting for some brass you've never seen before would be great. But just because a sophisticated machine makes sense for a commercial enterprise, it doesn't mean that it is required equipment for a shooter processing one or two types of brass. That's not to say that hand holding your brass in a candle flame is a good idea (It isn't).
 
But just because a sophisticated machine makes sense for a commercial enterprise, it doesn't mean that it is required equipment for a shooter processing one or two types of brass. That's not to say that hand holding your brass in a candle flame is a good idea (It isn't).
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Mozella. very good.

And again, I decided there were rules to annealing, I decided there were factors; and then I sat down and made some equipment that did not violate a few simple rules and agreed with factors.

F. Guffey
 
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