A chink in the armor of Norma brass

So Norma made good on their promise and promptly set me a new lot of .300 win mag brass...200 pieces to replace the 200 I had initially bought.

I don't know if these are going to be more durable, but I have decided to use them in my hunting rifle. This way they won't be fired often and will likely last for decades. Plus they are highly consistent and will make outstanding hunting ammo in my model 70 Super Grade.

I'm going to try Winchester brass for now but I have some RWS ordered Which is supposed to be very durable

Maybe it was just a weak batch, but it is very consistent and makes some very accurate ammo. Therefore, I think a hunting application is the best use.
 
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I always had issues with primer pockets in Norma brass, not all Norma brass, just some lots,
when I started mass reconditioning, I Rockwell tested the cases when new.
(Cutting new Norma brass up seemed like a sin...)

Norma was all over the place on the heads, necks were super consistant.
It's been 10 years since I stuck a Norma brass in the Rockwell machine, so I have no idea what they are doing today.

I'm sure there will be dozens of flames/disagreements on the following, even though I'm clearly stating it as personal experience...

Once I started annealing I got the same consistancy & performance out of reconditioned millbrass.
I had always been told Milbrass or common civilian brass was useless, especially
once it had been fired.

Not all milbrass (or civilian brass) is created equal, some makers and some years do a MUCH better job than others, but all in all, there wasn't any measurable difference in group size.

I know how to effectively & consistently anneal brass (both ends) if it's too hard,
I still haven't figured out how to harden lower cases...

Like Mississippi found out, annealing helps a TON when you go about it with some common sense (not 'Easy' or 'Simple'),
Getting some dies for a lower case roller that compacts the case head a little helps tighten up primer pockets in smaller cases, but I don't know how big of a press frame it would take to compact a large case head...
The Case Pro 100 has enough to compact 5.56 brass a little (with the right dies), but I would be afrade to try a big, thick head case fearing the frame would crack.

Not everyone wants to invest $2,500 or more into a case roller, but for production it saves a BUNCH of slightly questionable cases and makes all cases 100% SAMMI specification tolerance (for the guys with tight chambers).
 
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I always had issues with primer pockets in Norma brass, not all Norma brass, just some lots,
when I started mass reconditioning, I Rockwell tested the cases when new.
(Cutting new Norma brass up seemed like a sin...)

Norma was all over the place on the heads, necks were super consistant.
It's been 10 years since I stuck a Norma brass in the Rockwell machine, so I have no idea what they are doing today.

I'm sure there will be dozens of flames/disagreements on the following, even though I'm clearly stating it as personal experience...

Once I started annealing I got the same consistancy & performance out of reconditioned millbrass.
Not all Milbrass is created equal, some makers and some years do a MUCH better job than others, but all in all, there wasn't any measurable difference in group size.

I know how to effectively & consistently anneal brass (both ends) if it's too hard,
I still haven't figured out how to harden lower cases...
Click to expand...


You and I are not the first people who have spoken about soft primerpockets/ caseheads in Norma brass. I have seen countless articles and posts on this once I started looking.

From my experience so far, and this is with new Norma brass in .300wm and .270, the neck thickness, case weights, primer pockets etc. are all very uniform. My .300wm brass came in at 2.605" case length, which is .005" below the recommended trim length, but not a problem as they were all that length and I often trim below the book minimum anyway.
Really, there isn't any prepwork to be done on Norma brass. And when I have made precision ammo with it, it is indeed very accurate.

But, you really have two choices: If you fire hot loads, you are looking at 3 loads or so in Norma brass....or you keep it around 50k psi and get more loads.
So it seems a good application here is Hunting ammo..I have 200 pieces of new Norma brass now, if used for Hunting that is at a minimum 600 rounds of quality hunting ammo.

600 rounds is a lot of Elk and Mule Deer hunting...so it isn't a loss at all really.
 
I got CREAMED when I suggested that Norma brass wasn't 'Perfect' 10 or 15 years ago, there are some REAL fan boys of Norma out there!

Norma's QC is second to none, VERY good brass... but nothing is 'Perfect 100% of the time.

I found Norma Case heads to be somewhere between 1/4 Hard to Half Hard.
Most Case heads fall squarely into the 'Half Hard' range.
I don't know where the Norma fans get 'Full Hard' from, never seen a Norma case even close...

It's true Norma doesn't show pressure signs like some other brass does, seen that myself.
I think it might be the thicker case head rather than being 'Harder',
Nothing like Mass to hold back pressure...

Norma can be a pain to resize, but the super consistant thickness at the shoulder bends, and consistant bend radius makes for a precise resize once you get the dies cooperating with the brass! I always liked that.

Trying to beat some military brass back at the shoulder is maddening!
The 'Drawing' die even slightly off center makes for screwey case wall thickness, and the radius of the shoulder bends isn't always consistant which makes for both off center & Datum Line issues when resizing...

Lake City brass got a BUNCH better/more consistant around 2012/2013 when ATK/Federal replaced the Viet Nam era forming presses with modern equipment!
I've always grudgingly used Milbrass, but with the LC upgrades, including changing the brass base formula, that LC brass is only about 1 tick off Federal premium brass...
The good news is once fired Milbrass hasn't increased in price because of the upgrades (panic buying on the other hand...)

Norma brass never used to change (don't know about the last 10 years).
Norma brass from 30 years ago couldn't be told from Norma brass from 10 years ago, SUPER CONSISTANT for decades,
No simple thing, so my hat is off to Norma!
With the changes in the refinement of base materials I have no idea how they did it, but they figured it out!

Very FEW faults, super consistancy, no going to buy and finding out you can't get what worked best for you, that's worth A LOT!
Probably the reason Norma is the 'Standard' people hold up as the best example.
Great for once or twice top end match loaders, not sure it makes economic sense for the 'Other 99%' of reloaders.
 
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I got CREAMED when I suggested that Norma brass wasn't 'Perfect' 10 or 15 years ago, there are some REAL fan boys of Norma out there!

Norma's QC is second to none, VERY good brass... but nothing is 'Perfect 100% of the time.
Click to expand...

There are always trade offs right? Ill use my .300 wm for example. Norma Brass is the best for any given load. Why? because I can get almost .300 RUM performance due to its high capacity, it is super consistent such that I don't have to cull a single piece for F-Class shooting (or even sort) and it will extract just fine on a full power load.

BUT!! You have about 3 loads before you are going to have to start discarding some due to loose primer pockets at full power.

Then there are the decent brass makers, remington, win, federal, hornady, they are good enough for match loading after culling for weight, deburring flash holes and uniforming pockets, turning necks, etc...So you have to buy 2x-3x expecting some wont make the cut. But, after all that, they are everybit as good as Norma, but don't have the case capacity like Norma does.

Then there is RWS, RWS is the heaviest of all in .300wm, it is not as consistent as Norma, but it is premium brass and it will outlast any other brand from what I hear about it....However, it has the lowest capacity and simply cannot even get withing 150 fps of what Norma can do.
 
I have only had one batch of Norma centerfire rifle brass, .22-250. It seems soft. I get sticky extraction with handbook loads that show no "pressure signs" in American cases. I load it light and get good accuracy.
 
I agree.
It didn't used to be a time vs price thing, or even the number of reloads...

Everyone at the upper end of accuracy shooting invested the time into everything anyway,
What it came down to 30+ years ago was simply finding ANY brass that could be worked into shape, and Norma produced a Zero Cull box of new brass...
All of us have bought a bag of Winchester or Federal brass and had to cull brand new brass because of weight, oversize flash holes, case volume, etc.
That just never happened with Norma for me, I bet I didn't cull 1/1,000 using Norma brass, and I checked/gauged EVERYTHING.

This is going to sound stupid, but it's a true story...
My first chronograph was a HUGE cast aluminum housing monstrosity (that's going to date me!), and I 'Assumed' the resolution was 20 to 30 FPS since I was 'Clean Room' particular about my loads, there was simply 'NO WAY' it could be my loads since I paid attention to every singe detail during loading.

Picked up Norma brass and loaded, first string through that crony and came up with a 12 FPS spread, the next group had a 16 FPS spread, the third group of Norma brass produce a 9 FPS apread!
I still have the range book page 35 years later to remind me that to 'Assume' makes an 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Me'!

That rifle REALLY loved Norma brass, and every other rifle since has 'Liked' or 'Loved' Norma brass...
I see a pattern here! ;)
 
I used to pick up range brass years ago. I did notice Norma brass usually had rust specs in it. I have seen it in US brass, but not nearly as much. Norma is supposed to be virgin brass.
 
Claiming any alloy is 'Virgin' is mislabeling from a metallurgist standpoint.
It may mean it's never been fired, who knows...

By definition, 'Virgin' means the ELEMENT is as pure as possible,
For instance, 'Virgin' copper means nothing has been alloyed into the copper, its 99%+ copper and nothing else.

Brass, by definition, is an alloy of copper & Zinc, just like Bronze is an alloy of copper & tin.

'Cartridge Brass', by definition, is copper, zinc, traces of lead, iron, antimony, tin and trace minerals, amounts being proprietary to particular manufacturers.
Even the slightest traces of metals or minerals can change the properties, so it's pretty closely guarded what & how much of the additives.

There is also what they call 'Low Cartridge Brass' (usually meaning lowered Zinc content),
And 'High Cartridge Brass' (which usually indicated a higher Zinc content).

It 'Seems Really Simple' when you start talking brass/annealing, etc,
But the farther you get into it, it the learning curve gets steeper & steeper exponentially until it's almost straight up!
Kicked my butt for about 5 solid years! ;) And I still get hit with things I didn't know about once a month!
 
I suspect they mean it is not reclaimed brass. I have run reclaimed brass and hit chunks of stainless and chunks of steel in it. I have hit chunks of carbide in steel that I had to mill out so I could finish the turn.
 
While not having tried Norma brass yet, my experience with the 7mm Rem Mag is about 5-6 reloads before the primer pockets are done.
This with Fed, Win, Rem, Hornady brass.

Quickload is usually within about 20 fps vs Chrony Beta Master.

My accuracy nodes, hence where i load to are also at least .5 gr less (usually a full grain), than max loads.

$.02
 
Just got off the phone an hour or so ago with Dixie Precision Rifles and The Lapua Rep at the shot show said they are going to be making.300wm again. If so I'm going to buy about 500 pieces.
 
FWIW
I found that re-formed Winchester brass would handle loads that would expand primer pockets on Norma brass. Is Norma thicker/softer than Winchester? Maybe both.
 
I have found similar problems with Norma brass with my 6.5 mm Creedmoor that uses large rifle primers. I thought it was the caliber since I have never had primer pockets wear out in 3 to 4 reloads.
After 4 reloads, you could put the primers in with your finger and then turn the case over and the primers would fall out.
I also had problems with Hornady brass with the 6.5 Creedmoor that also uses large rifle primers. After 4 reloads, the primer pockets also got loose.
I bought Norma and Hornady brass because I coundn't find any Lapua brass in stock and I was anxious to shoot my new rifle. I just bought 100 Lapua cases and have loaded only one load so far. If Lapua cases also have primer problems, I'll report that to the forum.
By the way, Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor brass uses small rifle primers.

I have never had a problem with primer pockets wearing out that quickly with any other caliber and I load for 7 different rifle calibers. I have loaded over 36,000 rounds in the last 6 years so I can say with some certainty that I have never seen primer pockets wear so quickly. I load for accuracy not velocity so I tend to load in the middle of the powder tables and avoid high pressure loads.

I generally use Lapua brass for all my reloads and I use steel pins to clean all my cases. Steel pins don't make Lapua brass pockets enlarge but they sure get them clean.

My .308 and .22-250 reloads have managed over 20 reloads before the primer pockets started to loosen. My .223 Lapua brass has gotten up to 26 reloads before the small rifle primers get loose. That was about the same time the necks began to split so I wasn't all that concerned.
 
I'm currently trying a similar load I used the Norma brass for in a bunch of culled, weight sorted, neck turned, flashhole deburred.

RWS is supposedly tough stuff but it sure is pricey.
 
I am going to run some quasi scinetif tests on brass hardness.

My take is FC is by far the softest brass. Also fails soonest (whyen no using remidla menas)

PPU is hard as hell. How do I know?

I am putting a recessed rim in my 7.5 as the primer pockets are tight and its one part of the help feed the primers in (the other is to uniform the pockets)

It takes a hell of a lot of effort to cut the minim recess. I was afraid initially of grinding to far down.

Not an issue. That stuff is so hard you have to push and hold for 2 seconds to get even a bit of a recess.
 
I have found similar problems with Norma brass with my 6.5 mm Creedmoor that uses large rifle primers. I thought it was the caliber since I have never had primer pockets wear out in 3 to 4 reloads.
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Like I said, Norma made good on their promise and gave me 200 new pieces of brass. Supposedly Norma requires that their brass lasts for at least 9 reloads. But who really knows what that means. 9 at MAP? 9 at something lower than MAP?

Anyway, folks on this forum seem to confirm my own findings, and the findings from folks around here at home who I have talked to about it. So I have decided that rather than workup a load in the new lot of Norma brass for my competition gun which will be reloaded and fired many times this year, I will use it in my hunting .300wm. The brass is VERY consistent, and previous experience, plus others who have weighed in report, that Norma brass makes some very accurate ammo. Plus, it has the largest capacity meaning I can get the best velocities at lower pressures in my hunting rifle.

Plus, if I only get 3 loads out of this batch of 200, that will still be a lot of hunting ammo...or at least i think 600 rounds is a lot of hunting ammo.

I heard a rumor that Lapua will be making .300wm brass again soon, it was 2nd hand from a guy at a precision rifle shop in Jackson who heard it from the Lapua rep at the shot show in vegas. I hope it is true, but for now Im using RWS brass in my competition rifle.
 
Case manufacturers should go to a pro-rate system like tire and battery manufacturers. We have a member on many different forums that claims he gets 44 firing out of one case. I thought it strange he did not know what the case weighed when he started. BECAUSE! An owner of a custom rifles walked up the builder at a gun show and accused the builder of screwing up the head space of the chamber.

The owner handed the smith a case to prove his point, thought embarrassing the smith said he was at a disadvantage because he had to be at his shop with the rifle; the owner agreed to bring the rifle to the shop.

And then? The owner continues down the isle until he was standing in front of me, I asked to see the fired case. After looking at the case I ask the proud owner if that was the only case he had for that rifle and I asked him if he fired and reloaded the case over and over and over etc. etc. And then, I offered to form 200 cases for his rifle for free. It was about that time the builder came down to get involved, he asked to see the case again and then suggested he take the case to a third party that was fair and objective and a man of few words. He agreed; he took the case to a smith no one argues with. He came back mad and upset, seems the old smith asked him if that was the only case he had for his rifle and he asked him if he was firing the case over and over and over etc. etc.; the old smith then pulled the case apart with his hands and measured the thickness of the case body. The case body thickness was .002", the fair and objective smith informed the owner .002" is good for paper but .002" is too thin for the case body when extracting the case from the sizing die and chamber.

The owner never thanked me for my offer to form 200 cases from new cases and he never showed up at the shop.

F. Guffey
 
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