A .357 that acts like a .45 acp?

If you want to change a .357 into something else, why don't you just buy something else in the first place?
Click to expand...

Could be because I already own some .357/.38 specials and I like their size and models.

What would you suggest I buy?
The size of a j or K frame that shoots .45 acp?
That is a revolver?

Probably the closest would be something like the Smith 69 in .44 special five shot L frame, but that still is on the large size.
If I do that, I would rather go with the eight shot 627 like Joshua and change the .357 to .45 acp!LOL

And also, some people just like to be innovative, and not buy stuff.:cool:

Beside which, it's not changing the .38 into something else.
It's been around a while, just trying to find out more.
Found loading data in my 1967 Lyman reloading manual for loads for 195 grain cast. Max of 9.5 grains yields 893 Fps, bullet #358430.
Just looking for some factory stuff like this.
 
Last edited:
The .357 Mag made its name based on it being a .357 Mag.
If you don't want a .357 Mag, get something else.

If you want to load one down, your choice, but you might as well just shoot .38s.
Denis
 
Thanks Hammerhead.
And can you explain why that is?
Click to expand...

Less pressure is needed with .45 because of the larger surface area under the bullet, like a large diameter pneumatic piston needs less pressure than a smaller one to do the same work.
 
Last edited:
The .357 Mag made its name based on it being a .357 Mag.
If you don't want a .357 Mag, get something else.

If you want to load one down, your choice, but you might as well just shoot .38s.
Click to expand...
Never understood that. Nothing wrong with downloading to .38 levels in .357 brass. I've been doing it for 20 years. Started with a lever gun that didn't feed .38 as well as .357, and I still do it in my F/A .357 because I don't like the carbon ring in tight chambers, plus no fiddling with dies back and forth.
 
Or, you could just buy a .38 & shoot .38s.

Actually quite a silly offshoot of the discussion of using .357 Mag in terms of reducing sound levels for SD.
Denis
 
IMO the question has some validity. Before modern hollow points the .38/200 LRN was touted as having better SD performance than lighter, non-expanding .38 bullets because it was more likely to tumble inside a target.

I'll stick with the .45/200 SWC myself.
 
Throw momentum into the equation

Do not discount the effect of momentum (mass times velocity, as opposed to energy which is mass times velocity squared).\

And the effect of frontal area is not to be discounted, either.

As mentioned before, a larger wound channel carries more effect. Even if a .357 mag delivered a 230 grain bullet at the 45 ACP standard 830-850 fps (same energy AND momentum) the larger wound channel means something. The speed of the transfer of the energy of the bullet means something, too.

It is a good question.

Hammerhead's analogy with the large diameter hydraulic piston vs small diameter hydraulic piston is right on point. And the same sort of analogy (but a bit messier to explain) applies when the bullet is decelerated, too.

Lost Sheep
 
Federal, for example, makes a 180 grain .357 JHP in their hunting line listed at 1080 fps. I'm not sure the barrel length but assume that is from a hunting length barrel. That is slower than a 185 grain 45 acp+P from a five inch barrel (nominal 1145 fps?) and yet certainly not listed as a self defense cartridge. I'm assuming that is because of its deep penetration. Could it be a base for what you are talking about with a different hollow point? Or, is the sectional density of a very heavy .357 too much to overcome? Is there a good reason no one is trying or is it just habit and tradition?
 
From my revolvers, I wish there was something close to 357 magnum effectiveness, with 45 acp decibels.
Click to expand...

Look no further than the FBI Load: .38 +P 158 grain Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollowpoint. It is a highly effective .38 load that performs better than its energy numbers might suggest. It is very comfortable to shoot and highly controllable in a steel frame revolver. And I don't find it too bad in my 642 either.

Energy is important insofar is you need enough to drive a bullet of specific construction to a certain penetration depth (possibly through a barrier of some sort like clothing) while hopefully expanding. I'm not concerned about specific energy numbers. A thrown rock probably has more kenetic energy than a 230 grain 45 ACP, so lets just start carrying rocks instead :p .

TNOutdoors9 does some great ammo testing on Youtube, though unfortunately I don't think he has done the .38 FBI Load.

Or, if you want big bore you can always carry an N Frame in .44 Mag/Special, .45 Colt or .45 ACP.
 
All this reminds me of a member on this forum (can't recall who) who swore he had a .45 that was shooting to near .357 mag velocity.
Click to expand...

While it wasn't I that said that, I do have .45s that run at .357 velocities, but they aren't .45ACPs. :D

The 180gr .357 loadings are not considered self defense loads, because as far as I know, no one is loading a "self defense" type bullet in them. If you built as bullet like the 125gr JHP (designed to open up at the 180gr speeds) it should be a fine performer on humans, aside from the boogeyman of "overpenetration".

The problem with the .357 is the ear splitting report, and that is due to the gas pressure and the size of the bore, together. The same pressure (let alone more pressure) out of a smaller pipe makes a louder sound.

All are bad for unprotected ears, but the .357 is worse than the .44Mag even though the pressure is the same. Bore size does make a difference here.
And, of course, compared to the .45acp, the supersonic .357 is much louder.
 
There used to be a .38 Superpolice load and the Brits had the 38/200 load. They were a bit to slow in velocity but still they were made.

So there is no reason, say a S&W 640 J snub, can't be set up with a .357 magnum load with a 200 gr. lead wadcutter at 800 fps. Or a 3 inch Ruger GP100 can't be set with same bullet at 900 fps.

I'd have no qualms using such a load.

Buffalo Bore ammo does make a 180 gr load but 1300 fps from a snub J might be a bit to much.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

Deaf
 
Federal makes a load with a 180gr Swift A frame that's along the lines of your premise, but like hammerhead points out it's still a high pressure round.
IIRC the 357 load in the original Black Talon line was 180gr.
 
As an experiment, one could try various loads with a 180 or 200 grain bullet to compare the noise levels at 800 fps.

As the main complaint with .357 seems to be the noise level, this might be something that manufacturers would look at.
As many others, I have no problem at all with the recoil or power of the .357 magnum, only the concern about damage to my hearing if needed in an SD situation.
 
I shot some 200gr plated bullets yesterday I've had loaded for quite a while in 357 brass. I put 11 grains of AA4100 powder behind them and they shot so very accurate at 25 yards, 1.5" groups out of my 586-8. Very pleasing recoil too. Just a firm push but it is a magnum load, no mistaking that. Probably about what you had in mind I think.
Have not chrono'd them yet.

Finding any more 200gr, 357 bullets might be a chore. These were purchased from National Bullet Co., now out of business.
 
Last edited:
You can, obviously, load the .357 hot or light.

People have been doing it for decades.

The issue I find silly is the premise of trying to "convert it into a .45 ACP" to reduce noise levels for self defense.

If the noise is a problem, choose another caliber.
Nothing limits you to a .357 revolver, forces you to make one "work" for you in such a scenario, or requires you to emasculate the caliber to meet an arbitrary sound level.

A 180 or 200 at 800 isn't much of a magnum, more of a heavy .38.

Ammomakers are highly unlikely to jump on that bandwagon.
Denis
 
Although I haven't seen much test data, Winchester went this route with the .357 Mag 180 gr Black Talon, which was marketed as a SD round. I would have already tried a few boxes if they didn't become Unicorn rounds over the years at $75 per 20-25 rds, too precious to shoot! :eek::eek:

I'm sure it could be done with the right bullet to account for soft human targets instead of tough animals. I've got some 158 JHPs as low as 1100 fps for Buffalo Bore's Tactical load, although it appears the 158s tend to overpenetrate.

There is no doubting the devastating effects of the hot 125s. Unfortunately, the relationship of bore diameter/pressure of the mighty .357 is apparently perfect to wreak havoc on human ears, which is a shame considering the high performance. For that reason, .357 is more of a recreational caliber for me using my 6" 686P to destroy watermelons, jugs, etc., always with stout hearing protection, which you won't have in a SD situation....
 
Got your point Denis,
I think you used silly three times already!LOL:rolleyes:

But to each their own.
I'm not the first to come up with this idea, and there will be others, so the discussion is valid.
 
You are still not going to get to the sound impulse of the 45 with a 357. To move the same bullet @ the same speed the smaller caliber will have higher pressure.

You could just get a 44 special.
 
I have a 357 load that pushes a cast 250 grain bullet to 1050 from a carbine. The bullet is a hunters choice (246 grain) cast bullet with a gas check put on it.

From my Coonan it gets about 875 FPS I have shot them out of my J-frame too but I cant remember the velocity. I want to say about 700ish but that is just a guess.

I got the idea from the silencer talk forum when I went looking for a good subsonic load my my suppressed Ruger 77/357

there is also a Remington 180 grain load that is marketed as a self defense load. It is a Hollow Point. It is the 180 grain 357 magnum HTP load.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top