9x23 Win

O

Onward Allusion

New member
Why didn't 9x23 Win take off? It's kind of like 40S&W -vs- 10mm.

Strictly by the numbers, there's no arguing that 9x23 packs more energy than even 9mm +P.

Why don't more folks use this round for defense? Is there anyway to rechamber a regular 9mm (9x19) to use 9x23 Win?
 
Last edited:
Didn't take off because it requires a larger frame than 9mm, .40, .357 Sig. Yeah, it has more energy, higher velocities than the 9/.40/.357 Sig, but why buy a 9x23 Winchester when you can have a 10mm or a .45 ACP in the same size handgun? The 10mm packs more power and in the case of the .45 ACP, cheaper factory ammunition.

The big reason why is because there are people who still believe the answer to more power in a 9mm projectile is the 9mm +P+ load, which can be shot in about any 9mm pistol.
 
I'm not expert on the subject, but do have some experience shooting and reloading the 9X23 Winchester cartridge. The 38 Super had been around for over 60 years when the 9X23 Win. came along. Although the 9X23 is a fine cartridge, and superior to the factory 38S in performance, I suspect that the well established 38 Super was too much for the new, and never well known cartridge, to overcome. FWIW, with ramped barrels, ballistics of the 38S cartridge can safely approximate 9X23 Win. ballistics.

And Yes. Since the 9x23 Winchester is a tapered case, 9X19s or 38 Supers can be rechambered to 9X23.

PS, I've choreographed quite a bit of factory and reloaded 38 Super and some 9X23 Win., along with a bunch of factory 9MM +P and +P+. Factory 9X23 Winchester has ballistics significantly superior to any factory 9MM +P or +P+ I've tested in equal barrel lengths.
 
Last edited:
Same reason we don't drive racecars to work.

It is a specialized competition cartridge which operates at extremely high pressure. Higher than all but the most extreme (.357 Maximum, .454, .500 and .460 Mag) handgun cartridges. There's no magic to it and no free lunch. Loaded to full power, it's going to eat guns.

You can load a .40 S&W to about the same power level and at 10,000psi lower pressure but that would be hard on guns as well.
 
FWIW, with ramped barrels, ballistics of the 38S cartridge can safely approximate 9X23 Win. ballistics.
Click to expand...

Max chamber pressure for 9x23 is 50% higher than .38 Super; I don't know that I'd make a mission of trying to duplicate 9x23 ballistics in a Super.
 
One of the many thing in Firearms Land that is the answer to an unasked question. The 10mm Auto is one of those too.
The 9x23 Win is/was just Winchesters version of the .38 Super. Doesn't do anything better than anything else though.
Shooting Times said, "It delivers .357 Magnum performance in a semi-automatic pistol." Exactly the marketing phrase for the .357 Sig.
 
RickB, No mission to duplicate 9X23 Win. ballistics sir. Approximating, but not quite equaling, 9X23 Win. just happened. I used new or once fired 38 Super and 38 Super Comp cases and CCI #500 primers. Working up to 12.5 grains of AA-9 powder, as shown in The Accurate Smokeless Powder manual, with a 124 grain RN bullet seated to 1.275", one of my 5" Supers produced 1417 FPS, another, 1438 FPS. This, without any blown or bulged cases, cratered or blown primers,etc. I have little doubt that I could duplicate factory 9X23 ballistics with the Super if that was my goal. How is this possible? The Super case has noticeably more powder capacity than the 9X23 Win. case. Dropping the same powder charge in a 38 Super case and 9X23 Winchester case leaves no doubt that the Super cases have more powder capacity. I haven't tried to calculate how much more, but it is immediately obvious. I've been reloading the Super, initially for Colts, then later for STI and Kimber 38 Super pistols, for 35+ years now. Also handloaded Col. Cooper's Super 9 cartridge, and more recently the 9X23 Win. Still have both eyes, and all my fingers. I think I've figured out how to work up safe handloads in these calibers.

BTW, I loaded Col. Cooper's Super 9/"Super Cooper" cartridge to 1625 FPS in a 5" barrel, with a 115 grain JHP bullet. Didn't blow up or anything, or lose any body parts, with that cartridge either;)
 
I know a guy who was loading 115@1500+ in his USPSA competition gun. Maybe you know him; Super Face?

There's a guy on another forum who claims that he achieves 10mm velocities through his .40 S&W, and while it may be true, I don't see any reason for anyone else to try to do so.
 
I has been done. http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-the-38-super/
Click to expand...

The energy levels in that article (@600 ft/lb) are about the top end for standard pressure .40S&W as well. I don't think a steady diet would do the gun any good though. Pressure aside, I think the slide velocity is getting too high at that level. Maybe with some tuning...

My M&P40 had its one and only malfunction at about 600 ft/lb. I believe that recoil stripped the top round from the mag causing a misfeed. Cases showed no abnormal deformation at all. This was with Hodgdon's max load of Longshot and 155gr XTPs, pressure 31,900PSI. From a 5" barrel I got just over 1300fps. I was actually expecting more as Hodgdon got 1283fps from a 4" barrel. I doubt I'll go to this level on a regular basis though.
 
Last edited:
I know a guy who was loading 115@1500+ in his USPSA competition gun. Maybe you know him; Super Face?
Click to expand...

115 @ 1500+ is no problem in the 38 Super. It can be done within SAAMI operating pressures. See the previously posted link.
 
Not in the late '80s, it couldn't.
There have been lots of advances in loading components, but they don't apply selectively, so anything you can do with a Super, 9x23 can still do better.
 
The biggest thing was IPSC/USPSA changed the rules for major power factor for everything but open to require .40 to make major. Since the main target of 9X23 was competition that killed it.
 
PS, I've choreographed quite a bit of factory and reloaded 38 Super and some 9X23 Win., along with a bunch of factory 9MM +P and +P+.
Click to expand...

Choreographed? how well did they dance?? :rolleyes:

Don't you just hate autocorrect sometimes?? :D
 
All I'm saying is the 357 ring of fire will best all of the above!

Legal Disclaimer: fire said caliber at your own risk, the author of this comment will not be held liable for handgun detonation, disintegration, or any loss of eyesight, life, or limb resulting from repeatedly firing a cartridge obviously loaded to proof levels of similar handguns in other similar sized cartridges.
 
All I'm saying is the 357 ring of fire will best all of the above!
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned, any round that needs a legal disclaimer warning of detonation & disintegration of the gun doesn't "best" anything.
 
And, is there really any point to driving little bullets to ever-higher velocities?
At some point, you have to ask, "What is this for", or, "What favorable effect will be realized by driving the bullet faster?"

Any time someone is interested only in max loads for a given cartridge, "Well, I was able to drive that bullet 20fps faster than you!", I wonder if the "big" ballistics are inversely proportional to something else?
 
As far as I'm concerned, any round that needs a legal disclaimer warning of detonation & disintegration of the gun doesn't "best" anything.
Click to expand...

Agreed, my post was in jest. I probably shouldn't have brought it up, though I am curious as to how the patent process is going:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top