9x19 balls vs. 45acp ball: part 2

Need to say a few things re: Fackler, Marshall&Sanow and the
45 Vs 9mm controversy.

I am by training a physiological psychologist that works in neuroscience research lab and have had a few undergrad and graduate courses in statistics. This does not make me an "expert" in my opinion but somewhat knowledgeable about what is "scientific" and how to analyse data.

It is often stated that Marshall and Sanow are not scientific, but I disagree. It is true that their presentation is not in a science journal format and that the most serious charge against them is that they will not or cannot present their raw data for review by a third party. They ask a basic question: are pistol calibres different in their effect and they define the effect they are looking for(one-shot stops). If pistol calibres are the same, why not use a .22. So they do a postdictive study, an after-the -fact study based on reports that they got from various PDs around the country. And, hopefully they are honest and objective just as we expect scientists that publish in peer-reviewed journals to be.

The data that they published in their books can be statistically analysed using a chi square test and I have done so . In general, if you look only at cases where data for at least 100 shootings is presented, separation by 10 percentage points is indicative of a significant statistical difference. For example, I feel safe in saying that in the 38 Special the 158 gr +P LSWCHP load (FBI load) is better tha the 158 gr RN and in general JHP 9mm loads are better than ball. I would not say that one load is better than another if separated by only a few points.

Postdictive studies are not the best way to do science, but often they are the only way and in many cases point the way to lab studies.

I have read the studies published by Fackler in the scientific literature (Science and the Journal of Trauma).I think that historically his major impact will be on how surgeons treat gunshot wounds. Now for some conjecture, everybody knows about his development(with his collegues)of the use of the gelatin model to show what projectiles do to tissue. My conjecture is this: At one time people studing the effects of projectiles shot goats, sheep, pigs or cows.
The "little ladies in tennis shoes" didn't like this , wrote to their congressmen and pressure was put on the Army to develop PC models of wounding. Fackler and his group were probably ordered to develop an alternative and that's why we have ballistic gel. Remember this is conjecture.

Finally, on the 9mm vrs 45 controversy: the 45 is American, stopped the Moros and puts you down if shot anywhere. Elmer Keith and Col. Cooper said so it must be true. Whereas, the 9mm is evil, German, foreign and forced on us by NATO. Also, the COL. said its a puny load.
 
Well, I didn't chime in earlier, but YES, I did change my mind. I do have more faith in my 45's than I did before. I would, however, like to add to the discussion...

What of the combined effect of multiple projectiles like Glaser, Magsafe, and QuickShok ammo?

Somebody talked earlier about Multiple hits asserting that the 9mm was quicker to shoot multiple times than the 45... BULLCRAP. Ever watch an IPSC match? The majority or recovery time is realligning the sights.

Another also said that hollowpoints negate the argument. Also bull. The 165 Grain loads in the 45 ACP +P will expand much better than any 9mm round can hope to.
 
Badgerarms: I agree with you that multiple shots with a 45 arent hard to accomplish. In fact, I dont detect that much difference between 45 and 9mm. Others, I am sure though, could disagree as a lot of this perception is subjective.

As I noted earlier in previous posts, I am concerned about the amount of penetration you can get from the frangible type rounds you have listed. If they penetrate enough before releasing the sub-projectiles, then they will at least make a huge mess to have to clean up in the OR. I doubt they would be anymore lethal than one big JHP, but many projectiles making many small holes would be nasty to recover from.

One drawback to these rounds is they are expensive. Before I would be willing to depend on this round for defense I would want to know it works in MY gun 100% of the time, based on firing it at least 200 times. That would cost a lot of bucks.

For me, I am just fine with 230g Hydrashock, 185g +P Golden Saber, or 165g Hydrashock, depending on my mood and what I am shooting.
 
You know, I have a 7.62 x 39 and a .45. After hearing about the .223 breaking at the cannelure and turning bone into grenade and now the 9mm doing a crazy yaw, I'm rethinking my purchases... no... I think I'll just stick with what I've got. Then we get to hear about how the .40 kabooms, is inaccurate, not enough diameter, too much snappy recoil or is just a solution in search of a problem.



I'll just have to feel insignificant and embarrassed until the next study that praises the .45 is published. :D



Trendy flash and the latest gear will never replace clean technique.
 
In the end you will realize that there is no magic bullet.
You remember the wisdom of the old sages from the 50's that said "Use the biggest caliber you can handle". You sit back and think... That biggest caliber you can handle combined with propper shot placement will give you the best results.

Then you count all the money you could have saved had you but listened...
Wisdom is learning from experience.
 
Dr45ACP,

So is the .44 special a better round than the .357 magnum because it is larger, therefore creating a bigger hole even though it has less energy?

Thanks for your opinion,

Longshot
 
Longshot:

357 has a higher energy and velocity than most other 9mm and 38 caliber rounds. As a result, 357 JHP will more reliably expand. This effectively increases the caliber of the bullet. It also penetrates deeper than most similar sized bullets. As long as bullets this size will expand, they will do fine (including 9mm, etc).

I think 357 is better than most 9mm rounds because expansion is more certain and it penetrates better.

So how does it compare to 44 special? Well, first of all, let me say I am not sure. I havent seen anyone that I know for sure was shot with a 44 spec, its becoming unfortunately a rather rare caliber choice these days. Theoretically it pushes a bullet approximately the same size as a 45 ACP to approxiamately the same velocity. So theoretically it is perhaps about as good as 45 ACP, though your choice of bullets for defense is probably not as good, from what I understand.

My opinion would be, though, that 357 mag and 44 spec are about the same in terms of stopping power, though I know Sanow and others will claim the opposite based on their "data".
 
Aren't a lot of the OSS studies based on how close a bullet comes to an "optimal penetration" depth? That's why the .44 mag and such scored pretty low, because of overpenetration?

I'm sure that a .50 BMG would penetrate much much more than any of the others, yet I'm fairly certain the actual OSS would be pretty significant.
 
rant

Ok. . . I've been reading this post and related posts and just had to pipe in. I've also read this 9mm vs. .45 for the past decade or more in gun mags.

What I rely on for correct info (since I no longer believe anything I read and only half of what I witness) is actual people who have been involved in shootings with other people not gelatin. Ask someone from Israel who has seen people with 9mm wounds and .45 wounds which they prefer. I have an uncle that was shot with a 9mm at battle of the Bulge. Whatever he was carrying in his leg pocket stopped the slug (mess kit or whatever), his belt feed jammed, he was the only living guy in the nest, one remaining German soldier was approaching to finish him off. He was quick enough to pull out his Colt .45 and return the favor first, removing the left arm of the attacker. He witnessed "a lot of casualties!" He is not impressed with 9mm ball! 9mm is a good assault round (if you have to carry a lot), but if you need to put an end to an attack quick even a .45 may not be enough. I will trust actual experience rather than this "boneless" ballistic gelatin and penetration depth "tumble theory". Until I see evidence that 9mm is superior to .45 I will continue to carry 230gr +P Hornady (950 fps). It's TWICE the weight of 115 gr. 9mm and only a bit slower...the physics are that simple!

Maybe someday ballistic gelatin will have bones in it . . .dream a little dream...
 
I once fired a magazine of 45 Black Talon into a snow bank. All 7 slugs were perfectly expanded and resembled Throwing Stars from the front with sharp petals protruding radially. In theory, this type of bullet spinning from the rifling and combined with the hydraulic action of energy transfer would tear up more flesh.

I was under the impression that it was medical professionals who fought for the ban on Black Talon because it was dangerous to remove without injuring the doctor. Any thoughts on this?
 
The idea that the Black Talon was risky to remove for the surgeon was pure BUNK, just part of the hype associated with the Black Talon.

Its possible to cut yourself removing any bullet, especially JHP's because the copper jacked frequently will seperate or at least tear and make jagged edges. This is no worse though with Black Talon than anything else.
 
Actually, I was at an American Academy of Forensic Sciences annual meeting when the subject of Black Talon and similar JHP ammo was brought up at a breakfast seminar. Medical doctors WERE highly concerned that the sharp points on these bullets would penetrate their rubber gloves and expose them to possible HIV infection, if the patient was HIV positive.

I don't know that this had anything to do with Winchester's decision to remove the "Black Talon" from civilian sales.
 
Yes, doctors were concerned about injuries from sharp metal fragments related to the Black Talon, but this fear was unjustified. All JHPs are fragmented and sharp enough to cause problems. Nothing special about the Talon. This controversy just added to the hype, but was unfounded.
 
That and the Talons were pretty whimpy loads anyway...
Good bullet - but it needed more energy that it was given.

A lot more.

I like the idea of its hyped Buzz Saw effect. Heck - I'ld love to shoot .45 caliber Broadheads... but bullets dont actually work that way. Hype was hype. Sigh.
No Magic bullets yet.
 
The bottom line is that the 9mm will pentetrate further and through a lot more than the .45 will. I may not have the imediate knock down but will kill in more cases than the .45 will. Kind of like comparing a big morter to a smaller AT gun.:)If you need to drop a guy on a horse the .45 is the best ever, body armor or in a vehicle you need a 9mm.
 
I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I would imagine that shattered bone fragments are as sharp or sharper than anything attached to a Black Talon.

LawDog
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top