9mm !!!!!!!!!!!!

9mm

Point #1: “Stopping power” is not our first priority. The number one most important factor in choosing defensive ammunition (and a firearm to use it in) is reliability. Every time you pull the trigger, the gun should fire. If you load your gun with Super Bullets but the gun doesn’t go off when you need it to, the Super Bullets don’t do you much good.

Accuracy is important, but it should not be the primary factor in choosing defensive ammunition. Most defensive shootings occur within a range of seven yards, in conditions of reduced lighting, under extreme stress. You are not going to be focused on bulls-eye accuracy. Don’t get too wrapped up splitting hairs between a load shooting 1.50” groups as opposed to one which shoots 2.00” groups at twenty-five yards. The real difference between the two is meaningless.

Point #2: There is a difference between “stopping” and “killing.” If you are forced to use lethal force, it is almost certainly because you or someone else is threatened with imminent death or serious bodily harm. In a defensive shooting, the priority is to stop the attack immediately. Shooting someone in the leg might cause an infection which kills eventually, but that doesn’t save you from return fire.

So just because a certain round has a reputation for killing doesn’t tell you if it is effective at stopping an attack quickly. Quite a bit of the scientific research into bullet wounds focuses on killing power, not stopping power.

Most modern defensive ammunition is some variety of JHP (jacketed hollow point). A JHP bullet has a hollow cavity facing forward. When the bullet strikes something, the hollow point tends to open up into a mushroom shape. This has two primary effects.

First, the bullet diameter is now wider, meaning the bullet cuts a bigger hole. It does more damage and has a greater chance of hitting a vital organ. Second, the wider contact surface meets greater resistance as it tries to push through, so it will not penetrate as deep.

If you are choosing ammunition, remember this: always choose JHP ammunition. Every major law enforcement agency in the country uses some form of JHP ammunition. Every major ammunition manufacturer touts its premiere JHP as the best defensive load.

Three numbers define a particular load. The first is caliber, which is a rough description of a bullet’s diameter. Don’t get too wrapped up on this. For example, a 357SIG bullet is actually 0.355” in diameter (which happens to be the same as 9x19mm). However, a .357 Magnum is actually 0.357” in diameter … and so is a .38 Special! But bullet diameter is one measure of a particular load.

The second is bullet weight. Bullet weight is measured in grains. One grain is equal to 1/7000 of a pound. So a light 115gr 9x19mm bullet (which is 0.355” in diameter) weighs about one quarter of an ounce; a heavy 230gr .45 ACP bullet (which is actually 0.45” in diameter) weighs half an ounce.

The third number is muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity is simply the speed of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle, measured in feet per second. A fast 115gr 9x19mm load might be moving 1,350fps, while a slow 230gr .45 ACP load will probably rate about 850fps.

Another important number is muzzle energy. “Energy” in physics terms is the ability to do work. More energy means potentially more work. Muzzle energy is determined by plugging the bullet weight and muzzle velocity into a formula. Muzzle energy is measured in foot-pounds. Our 115gr 9x19mm bullet moving at 1,350fps has 465 foot-pounds of energy; the 230gr .45 ACP bullet moving 850fps has 369 foot-pounds of energy.

When that JHP strikes a fluid medium (such as the inside of a human body), it expands. The size of the expanded bullet, and the depth of penetration, are also numbers most people consider very important. These numbers are usually determined by shooting special, calibrated ordnance gelatin (jokingly referred to as “jello”).

Expanded diameter is measured in two ways. The most common is a raw measurement (e.g., 0.65”). The less common is as a percentage of the original caliber. So if a .40 S&W bullet (which is 0.40” in diameter) expands to 0.65”, you have 62.5% expansion.

Penetration is simply the depth, in inches, that a bullet moves through the target.

A lot of factors affect expansion and penetration. Bullet design is the most important. Bullet weight and speed also play a role (as a general rule, the faster the bullet is going, the more it will expand and the less it will penetrate).

Two other numbers are produced in gelatin testing. One is the permanent wound channel (the volume of the hole created by the physical path of the bullet). The other is the temporary stretch cavity (the volume of space which is temporarily displaced by the shockwave of the bullet moving through a fluid medium).

So what makes one load better than another? There are two thoughts on the subject.

One thought believes that light, fast bullets with high muzzle energy are best. These tend to produce higher temporary stretch cavities. The theory is that such bullets create more disruption inside the target and lead to more rapid incapacitation. These bullets tend to expand more (or even fragment), and therefore have less penetration than slower, heavier bullets.

The other thought tends to favor slow, heavy bullets … usually in larger calibers such as .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The bullets tend to penetrate deeply and cause longer (wider and deeper) wound channels. The theory is that such bullets are more likely to strike a vital organ because they are more capable of passing through intervening barriers as well as protective tissues such as bone.

These are very broad generalizations, of course, and a lot of people fall somewhere in the middle. Nevertheless, they define two different approaches to choosing defensive ammunition. Not surprisingly, in most calibers there are three popular bullet weights … a light fast bullet weight, a slow heavy bullet weight, and a middle ground.

Ammunition choice plays a much smaller role in stopping an attacker than shot placement.

Shot placement simply means putting the bullet(s) where the most damage will be done to the attacker. The primary target is what we call the thoracic triangle. The points of the triangle are the throat and two nipples. Shots to this area tend to make people FDGB (“fall down go boom”). Shots outside this area tend to have less immediate effects. Within reason, this is true regardless of caliber, ammunition, etc.

Almost any popular defensive JHP load (Gold Dot, Hyrda-Shok, SXT, Golden Saber, etc.) in a major caliber will be effective if shot placement is good. More importantly, if shot placement is bad, a “more powerful” round won’t do you any good.

In certain calibers, some defensive ammunition is labeled “+p” or “+p+” … this indicates that the ammunition is loaded to a higher operating pressure than standard ammunition in that caliber. Such “+p” ammunition is available in .38 Special, 9x19mm, and .45 ACP. There is no such thing as “+p” .40 S&W ammunition, even though some companies advertise their ammo as such. As a general rule, use +p loads for .38 Special and 9x19mm, but not in .45 ACP.

For bullet weight and muzzle velocity, it really depends on which caliber you are shooting. Smaller calibers (like .380 ACP, 9x19mm, and 357SIG) tend to work better with lighter, faster rounds. Larger calibers (.40 S&W and .45 ACP) tend to work better with heavier, slower rounds.


Shot placement … just keep thinking shot placement.
 
When I went from a Sig P220 to a Sig P228 for duty carry I started having bad dreams...
You know that dream... the dream where the big monsterous dark threat is uneffected by your firing off a whole magazine into it... it just keeps coming... you reload and fire off another mag.
The thing keeps coming... and you wake up in a cold sweat.

I took that P228 and traded it off right hasty for a .40.

The dream never came back.
I aint superstitious and I know I am never going to be going on a Nightmare Hunt... but I just had little confidence in 9mm and that came through my subconscience into my dreams.

Well, I am back to .45. I still have nightmares... PTSD insures that I will always have nightmares... Hell, sometimes I will wake up with a scream just caught in my throat, sweating and feeling like I have just ran a 100 yard dash. But my dreams are never about inadaquate handguns.
 
It just goes to show how much of a psychological effect all this "wimpy 9mm" talk of the last 60 or so years has had on people. I'll bet .45 fans have nightmares about running out of ammo! And .40 fans have ones over their guns kB-ing on them. :rolleyes:

The 9mm USED to be a relatively ineffective round. The FMJ load pokes right through like an icepick. Modern JHP loads have changed all that. Folks need to remember that the .357 Magnum was the same way. Early LSWC loads often had very little effect on bad guys, to the point that many police officers went right back to the .38 Special since the extra recoil and muzzle blast didn't give them much in return. But once Lee Jurras and his Super-Vel ammo came along, things were entirely different. Now the .357 is regarded as a maneater. If it wasn't for all the old timers whipping the 9mm still it would also have a much better reputation.
 
My favorite defense handgun is a 1911, chambered in .45 ACP. However, I own 2 BHP's and 1 Sig 226 chambered in 9mm and would not feel the least bit under gunned with them on my person. Why? Because they are all totally reliable, accurate and I shoot them well. Can't stop'em, if you can't him'em.
 
Hmm...where have I heard this before?--- "Oh, .223 can't go through a 2x4 past 100 yds"--"I only use 9mm for the range, of course"--".40 is the bare minimum, forget 9"--- You know what I have to say about this and these people????? "**** IT"
 
No Blade... I didn't have to think about it using scientific method.
I didn't have to because I already had done that. I've seen 9mm rounds bounce off a windshield... Yeah, go ahead and tell me that a 9 cuts autoglass like butter. BS. I've personally fired a Glock 19 at the windshield of a Buick and then checked the results. Cracked glass with no penetration. Firing more shots - I did get several penetrations... a few rounds were caught in the glass as well. I've also done a great deal of testing using "fackler boxes" (at the time I called it a Water Box), soaked newspaper, pine boards set up in series with 1 inch gaps... and I even used blocks of clay. Why? Because I had NOTHING BETTER TO DO. (I took a couple months off of earning an income.) I tested 9, .40, and .45. I also tested .223 and 12g. Results of these compairisons lead me to believe that .45 IS better than a 9. If you don't like it, you can stuff it for all I care. But after doing this and then going to a 9mm... it bugged me until I changed. 185 grain or 230 grain .45 ACP is flat out more effective at ruining your target than 9mm. Pure and simple. Its a bigger bullet. A .45 has an easier time crashing through a windshield. Bigger bullets make bigger holes and that is really all you can count on. You need a big fat bullet that penetrates nice and deep to destroy tough internal organ tissues. And dont tell me about energy and expansion... only half expanded. Gold Dots and Nyclads expanded the best because they are soft. Sabers, Hydras, and regular JHPs also expanded well given ideal chances... I had a couple that didn't expand IN WATER.
Now, when you take several boxes of a bunch of loads and personally check the results in a series of test compairisons... then you can talk to me... until then, just shut up. Because if you have not then your just a Gun Rag Zombie and really and truely have no idea what your talking about.
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Goerge is the administrator?
You lost it alittle over sarcasm? ON THIS FORUM? I carry a 9mm
because I like it. Test away...I wont slam 45's in the least ..just
some people who defend them...shoot well
 
Golly Gee George

I agree with you Eric....George take a deep breath....maybe try breathing into a bag it might help:D
 
Ruger53 pretty much hit the nail on the head with that post there. :)

FWIW, with 10mm you can have your cake and eat it too: It's big, heavy and fast!

Seriously, 10mm or .45ACP for me please.

- Gabe

PS: George: Ever try Imitrex? It's a miracle.
 
Goerge..a couple of strong pain killers for your migraine and youll
be singing the praises of the "red ryder" personal defense gun...lol
Hope you head gets better shoot well
 
George, I've seen 00 Buck stopped buy a '75 (May have been a '78. I must be getting halvesheimers) Chevy Monza windshield. 55-grain 5.56mm NATO ball zipped through it like it wasn't there.

I've also seen the dents left by .45 ACP that bounced off the engine hood of a patrolcar during a shooting, nothing's perfect.

I have done some of my own testing and I have come to the conclusion that "using 'fackler boxes'..., soaked newspaper, pine boards set up in series with 1 inch gaps...", and even blocks of clay don't react the same way a human being does. And a human being with a mission to hurt you, even at the cost of his own life, will survive amazing punishment to his body. So shoot all the crap you want, but when the moment comes the badguy won't act like a bowling pin.

I enjoy my 9mm's, and my .45's, but either will get the job done if I do my job.
 
Well, they must be acting like meatheads if they need to be shot.
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George Hill wrote:

Hell, sometimes I will wake up with a scream just caught in my throat, sweating and feeling like I have just ran a 100 yard dash.

I know just what you mean there, George... I had a girlfriend like that once...

:D
 
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