9mm vs bear: now that's a bad day
- Thread starter Edmund Rowe
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I got this in the e-mail some time ago:
The Montana Department of Fish and Game, recently issued this bulletin:
In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Montana Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.
"We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.
Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure:
Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."
LawDog
The Montana Department of Fish and Game, recently issued this bulletin:
In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Montana Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.
"We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.
Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure:
Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."
LawDog
I don`t know if any of you have heard this story but on the NYPD it`s sort of an urban legend now.
A drunk decided to climb into the bear enclosure at the Central Park Zoo. The bear got ahold of the drunk and proceeded to maul him. His screams brought a cop on foot patrol in the park. The cop shot and killed the bear with 158gr RN non +Ps! The irony of this is the cop got hate mail for years after the incident.
This is supposed to have happened over 30 years ago so if anyone cares they might be able to look it up. It used to be told at the NYPD range and probably still is.
A drunk decided to climb into the bear enclosure at the Central Park Zoo. The bear got ahold of the drunk and proceeded to maul him. His screams brought a cop on foot patrol in the park. The cop shot and killed the bear with 158gr RN non +Ps! The irony of this is the cop got hate mail for years after the incident.
This is supposed to have happened over 30 years ago so if anyone cares they might be able to look it up. It used to be told at the NYPD range and probably still is.
Keith Rogan
New member
>>>>>I'm still not convinced a high-power with 13 rounds of 124gr. +P flat points would not be to some degree effective against a 150 to 200 lb. blackie<<<<
Yup, but how long would it take him to die? And what would he be doing to you in the meantime?
Bear guides always advise taking the shoulder shot and with a heavy weapon - to break down the skeletal structure so he's "anchored".
Sometimes even a perfect heart lung shot will mean tracking the animal for some miles. They are tenacious creatures.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Yup, but how long would it take him to die? And what would he be doing to you in the meantime?
Bear guides always advise taking the shoulder shot and with a heavy weapon - to break down the skeletal structure so he's "anchored".
Sometimes even a perfect heart lung shot will mean tracking the animal for some miles. They are tenacious creatures.
------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
j.s.parker
New member
Keith; Moe said all he has is a Browning HP. Fine. He asked what might be the best ammo? I simply tried to suggest what "might" be the best load in 9mm. Moe states "you had to carry a 9mm" and this is what I was responding to. I'm sure Moe knows a 9mm is fairly feeble against a black bear. But he did ask for certain imput. He didn't ask about guide guns, shotguns, 44 mags, 454 casulls. He asked about the 9mm. Personally, I carry a glock 21 and bring my Rem 870 HD when I go camping. But that's me not Moe. Probably the most important thing is knowing how to camp in bear country not the calibre you're taking. Millions of families go camping every year without any firearms! But if somebody said to me "you have a choice, you can take this bear spray or this high-power" I'd still take the high-power. I liked your bear page-good reading. Regards, j.s. 
Randy Garrett
New member
jsParker: you stated in the previous thread that the 9mm was "fine" and that the 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, 338, and 45-70 was a bunch of "crap". I sure would be interested to read how you can justify such a statement when the discussion regards dealing with an attacking black bear.
Hi guys. Gun clear, hammer down, holster. My only reget is that this thread is rapidly becoming a flame fest. Please don't be so hard on the next guy. If you don't agree then state so and let that be it.
It's wonderful the wealth of info I'm getting from all of you. Your recomendations are "ALL" being carefully coinsidered. I am not just shrugging off any suggestions. I activly write down pros and cons to each reply.
I did not start this thread for purely accedemic reasons. No. I started this thread because I unfortunately feel the need to protect myself against black bears while camping and hunting. I know my model 37 Ithaca will do fine when I am hunting but when camping I need a handgun. Can't be running agound the woods with a 12 pump out of hunting season. As you read before I Said the 9mm due to my training and experience. I guess if the majority thinks so (you do) If I ever did consider a large caliber gun. What do you recomend? The only revolver I have ever owned (and still do) is a ruger single six in 22lr/22mag. I like the cylinder release of the s&w models. Go revolver or auto? 357,41,44,454,45acp ? Wife has a 1911 45acp. maybe I could try try try try to shoot it...
What about barrel barrel length?
Last someone asked how my good friends made out in the bear attack. I don't feel it is my place to comment on this subject too much. One of them is a senior member of this board. He is aware of this thread and if he wishes to comment, he will. I will say this however. They are both OK. Atleast physicly.
Moe
It's wonderful the wealth of info I'm getting from all of you. Your recomendations are "ALL" being carefully coinsidered. I am not just shrugging off any suggestions. I activly write down pros and cons to each reply.
I did not start this thread for purely accedemic reasons. No. I started this thread because I unfortunately feel the need to protect myself against black bears while camping and hunting. I know my model 37 Ithaca will do fine when I am hunting but when camping I need a handgun. Can't be running agound the woods with a 12 pump out of hunting season. As you read before I Said the 9mm due to my training and experience. I guess if the majority thinks so (you do) If I ever did consider a large caliber gun. What do you recomend? The only revolver I have ever owned (and still do) is a ruger single six in 22lr/22mag. I like the cylinder release of the s&w models. Go revolver or auto? 357,41,44,454,45acp ? Wife has a 1911 45acp. maybe I could try try try try to shoot it...
What about barrel barrel length?
Last someone asked how my good friends made out in the bear attack. I don't feel it is my place to comment on this subject too much. One of them is a senior member of this board. He is aware of this thread and if he wishes to comment, he will. I will say this however. They are both OK. Atleast physicly.
Moe
j.s.parker
New member
Randy, My god man would you please read the initial post! All the poor man has is a 9mm and that is what I was responding too. All he has is a 9mm to take camping, okay? Is it an ideal bear calibre? Of course not!
Randy Garrett
New member
JSParker:
I was responding to your very words. I quote from your post, "Moe; please no more Marlin Guide Guns, 454 Casull, Randy Garrett's ammo, 44 Mag, 338 Win Mag advice! Your HP is fine. Lets not go broke buyin' all this other crap!" I didn't write that, you did. I was just wondering how you can justify those words?
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
I was responding to your very words. I quote from your post, "Moe; please no more Marlin Guide Guns, 454 Casull, Randy Garrett's ammo, 44 Mag, 338 Win Mag advice! Your HP is fine. Lets not go broke buyin' all this other crap!" I didn't write that, you did. I was just wondering how you can justify those words?
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
j.s.parker
New member
Garrett; The only thing bigger than your bullets is your ego. You're just Po'D because I mentioned you're ammo. This bear hysteria does one thing- fatten your bank account.
All I want is help. I just don't wan't to be a statistic. If someone thinks I am not taking their advice their wrong. I am combinding all your advice to make one good decision. One I think is possibly one of the most important decisions I have ever made. Please stay focused on the questions I have asked and let's all get along.
thank you
Moe
thank you
Moe
j.s.parker
New member
Lawdog; I don't have a problem with that. Just make sure the two resident bear experts read your post.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddt4free:
How about some non existant 9mm ap.? Could a jacketed hardened steal post get the penetration?[/quote]
Maybe the same manufacurer of the 9mm AP could also make 9mm API and 9mm HE?
How about some non existant 9mm ap.? Could a jacketed hardened steal post get the penetration?[/quote]
Maybe the same manufacurer of the 9mm AP could also make 9mm API and 9mm HE?
Randy Garrett
New member
JS Parker:
No need for rankor, I was just wondering what your logic was. Anyone who reads your postings can see that you are a thoughtful, intelligent contributor, I was just wondering what kind of a 9mm loading would be good for bear defense? Who knows, I might wish of offer a 9mm bear "hammer".
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited March 27, 2000).]
No need for rankor, I was just wondering what your logic was. Anyone who reads your postings can see that you are a thoughtful, intelligent contributor, I was just wondering what kind of a 9mm loading would be good for bear defense? Who knows, I might wish of offer a 9mm bear "hammer".
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited March 27, 2000).]
Ok Moe,
Now that the flame fest is over.
Perhaps I can answer your question to some satisfaction.
As a preface,
I have rather extensive experience with "Mr.Black" and to a lesser degree some with "MR.Grizz".
Let's just say that my education has included "BEAR" anatomy, with and extensive study of the animals skelatal,circulatory,nervous,and respiratory systems.
As well as an extensive field study of the above mentioned "UN-Friendly critters" habits and behaviors.
As a life long enthusiast of firearms, and a life long love of hunting big game in North America.
I believe I am qualified to render my opinion.
This opinion is mine and may not concurr with others, too bad!
As for the Black Bear:
You can run into him in a great variety of size's.
In the summer when young males set out looking for new territory and possible breeding partners. They are sometimes under a great deal of stress. They may have recently been trounced by a larger male and sent packing!
This situation can render these bears with injuries that may affect there ability to forage successfully for adequate naturaly available food.
This places them in a sometimes precarious position. It's at times like this when they will often wander too close to human habitation, like your campsite.
Even though they would prefer to stay unseen and undesturbed my man.
This is just one example.
They also are by nature "Fat Slobs" of oportunity.
If careless campers leave tasty smelling food around, or dumpsters aren't emptied often enough, you know what happens old greedy guts will surely make an apearance.!
And of course there is the accidental encounter in a blueberry patch, or a startled dozing bear who awakens abruptly by the intrusion of a unaware backpacker.....etc
You got the idea..,
As to responding with force to a Black Bear encounter.
We will assume that you have read "plenty" about how to survive a close encounter with a bear!
So you have waved your hands, made plenty of noise, jangled your bells, sang your songs, kept your camp clean, set your camp kitchen a reasonable distance from you main camp...etc.
And still you have made MR.or MRS. Black's acquaintance.
And He or She is pissed off at you real good!
For whatever reason a mistake the bear made or you made or by no one in particulars fault.
Youve desided to forget about pepper spray because, you have read about how alot of bears are actually atracted to the stuff because of the misguided campers who have sprayed the stuff all aroung there camp thinking it would work as a repelent.
So much for reading the instructions!
It does work.
But you gotta let them have it right in the old kisser.!
You got smack um in the old Shnozolla, and them little pig eyes for it to work.
And then only if the menacing posture or charge was a half hearted bluff.
Which I might add is often the case.
But if it's a full blown raging charge!
Forget the pepper, He's only gonna take a peek up your ass for the salt shaker!
Many times a Bear will make a false charge or two and then vear of and disapear, satisfying the bears instinctive response, and to my view their little bear ego's.
Anyway ,
It is hard to stand your ground and wait to see if the charge is just a bluff to rattle you, when you may NOT be holding some serious bear medicine in the way of a firearm.
Thought I wasn't ever going to get around to it?
So here goes:
You asked about your 9mm. as a defensive sidearm. Beacause you disqualified carrying around a 12 Gauge.
Well if you were to stuff that 9mm with a real good jacketed hollow point that holds together and pushed that puppy along real good.....lets say a CORBON 124 +P+.
You would have a margineable, but somewhat effective response firearm....."NOT" My first choice.
Your attack may come from behind, you may get knocked of your feet..etc.
All bear charges aren't head on with no obstructions between you and the bear, as is so often depicted in the movies.
A bear often runs in for attack somewhat like a "scallded dog" somewhat flat to the ground, running at an angle, with tail tucked in and head low.
Not a great shot opportunity !
They are incredibly fast, and when moving with all that hair it can be hard to tell which end is which.
Back to firearms and making the shot.
You stated a preferance for an auto pistol as your training has been along those lines.
A good stout revolver, in a much more potent calibre with a larger heavier bullet would of course be much better medicine for the bear, but you know that.
If you indeed wanted to cary a auto pistol and did not want to carry a big 45 Auto MAG. A heavy beast of a handgun.
Which you would probably leave on the bunk for no one loves toting a heavy bastard all day.
May I recommend a 10mm.
With a good handload using a top line bullet. The 10mm. is an incredible round out of a auto, combining high velocity with a large enough bullet in the 180 grain range.
GlOCK would be my choice, light,fast, and NO safety to worry about.
Study the bears anatomy.....A brain shot through the nose,eye....will drop him like a stone....if you are lucky.
A good solid hit in the lungs or heart will take the fight out of him rather quickly as well....but you must place it into his chest cavity from behind his shoulder angling forward...to reach the chest cavity being protected by his massive shoulder muscles and bone blade.
The throat or neck can be effective at extremely close quarters if you can sever his wind pipe or make a spinal hit in the neck.
This shot is often at point blank range, when the bear has closed to handshaking distance. As would a back of the skull at the base of the neck hit.
With a good bullet.
Braking down the shoulder to stop the charge and perhaps changing the bears mind, can not be overlooked either.
In all instances if you do start shooting finsh the job...don't wait to see if your shot or shots will finish him off.....as long as you can see him and he is within range keep picking a vital spot and shoot again.
Often a bear will run off to cover, only to lie wounded and re-harass you again minutes later.
But let me conclude by saying. Most black bears would rather avoid confrontation at any expense.
And will often just pop their teeth,growl a little,and make short false charges.
It can last a few seconds or a few minutes, and more than once if the bear is extremely adjutated.
But that still doesn't mean a full attack, will take place.
If the bear comes in low,quiet,and fast get ready.Your luck may be about to change for the worst.
BUT.....try to forget about what you see on TV....and realise that the articles you read in some of the more popular sporting magazines are meant to excite you, and often the author doesn't know what the heck they are talking about.
Just as some will make the same statement about this posting.
As for MR. GRIZZ......I don't care what handgun you want to tote.
You best carry a good 12G slug gun...with those full copper slugs, "PURE POISIN".
Or a good 45-70 guide gun...I don't care how heavy the bastards are. Carry it!
Brown bears aka Grizzly.....do behave differantly than blacks.
My expertise is not sufficient to make recomendations here perhaps you will do independant research on them prior to entering their domain.
I hope this helps some, please forgive the spelling mistakes, I have little time to proof this post.
WOLF
Now that the flame fest is over.
Perhaps I can answer your question to some satisfaction.
As a preface,
I have rather extensive experience with "Mr.Black" and to a lesser degree some with "MR.Grizz".
Let's just say that my education has included "BEAR" anatomy, with and extensive study of the animals skelatal,circulatory,nervous,and respiratory systems.
As well as an extensive field study of the above mentioned "UN-Friendly critters" habits and behaviors.
As a life long enthusiast of firearms, and a life long love of hunting big game in North America.
I believe I am qualified to render my opinion.
This opinion is mine and may not concurr with others, too bad!
As for the Black Bear:
You can run into him in a great variety of size's.
In the summer when young males set out looking for new territory and possible breeding partners. They are sometimes under a great deal of stress. They may have recently been trounced by a larger male and sent packing!
This situation can render these bears with injuries that may affect there ability to forage successfully for adequate naturaly available food.
This places them in a sometimes precarious position. It's at times like this when they will often wander too close to human habitation, like your campsite.
Even though they would prefer to stay unseen and undesturbed my man.
This is just one example.
They also are by nature "Fat Slobs" of oportunity.
If careless campers leave tasty smelling food around, or dumpsters aren't emptied often enough, you know what happens old greedy guts will surely make an apearance.!
And of course there is the accidental encounter in a blueberry patch, or a startled dozing bear who awakens abruptly by the intrusion of a unaware backpacker.....etc
You got the idea..,
As to responding with force to a Black Bear encounter.
We will assume that you have read "plenty" about how to survive a close encounter with a bear!
So you have waved your hands, made plenty of noise, jangled your bells, sang your songs, kept your camp clean, set your camp kitchen a reasonable distance from you main camp...etc.
And still you have made MR.or MRS. Black's acquaintance.
And He or She is pissed off at you real good!
For whatever reason a mistake the bear made or you made or by no one in particulars fault.
Youve desided to forget about pepper spray because, you have read about how alot of bears are actually atracted to the stuff because of the misguided campers who have sprayed the stuff all aroung there camp thinking it would work as a repelent.
So much for reading the instructions!
It does work.
But you gotta let them have it right in the old kisser.!
You got smack um in the old Shnozolla, and them little pig eyes for it to work.
And then only if the menacing posture or charge was a half hearted bluff.
Which I might add is often the case.
But if it's a full blown raging charge!
Forget the pepper, He's only gonna take a peek up your ass for the salt shaker!
Many times a Bear will make a false charge or two and then vear of and disapear, satisfying the bears instinctive response, and to my view their little bear ego's.
Anyway ,
It is hard to stand your ground and wait to see if the charge is just a bluff to rattle you, when you may NOT be holding some serious bear medicine in the way of a firearm.
Thought I wasn't ever going to get around to it?
So here goes:
You asked about your 9mm. as a defensive sidearm. Beacause you disqualified carrying around a 12 Gauge.
Well if you were to stuff that 9mm with a real good jacketed hollow point that holds together and pushed that puppy along real good.....lets say a CORBON 124 +P+.
You would have a margineable, but somewhat effective response firearm....."NOT" My first choice.
Your attack may come from behind, you may get knocked of your feet..etc.
All bear charges aren't head on with no obstructions between you and the bear, as is so often depicted in the movies.
A bear often runs in for attack somewhat like a "scallded dog" somewhat flat to the ground, running at an angle, with tail tucked in and head low.
Not a great shot opportunity !
They are incredibly fast, and when moving with all that hair it can be hard to tell which end is which.
Back to firearms and making the shot.
You stated a preferance for an auto pistol as your training has been along those lines.
A good stout revolver, in a much more potent calibre with a larger heavier bullet would of course be much better medicine for the bear, but you know that.
If you indeed wanted to cary a auto pistol and did not want to carry a big 45 Auto MAG. A heavy beast of a handgun.
Which you would probably leave on the bunk for no one loves toting a heavy bastard all day.
May I recommend a 10mm.
With a good handload using a top line bullet. The 10mm. is an incredible round out of a auto, combining high velocity with a large enough bullet in the 180 grain range.
GlOCK would be my choice, light,fast, and NO safety to worry about.
Study the bears anatomy.....A brain shot through the nose,eye....will drop him like a stone....if you are lucky.
A good solid hit in the lungs or heart will take the fight out of him rather quickly as well....but you must place it into his chest cavity from behind his shoulder angling forward...to reach the chest cavity being protected by his massive shoulder muscles and bone blade.
The throat or neck can be effective at extremely close quarters if you can sever his wind pipe or make a spinal hit in the neck.
This shot is often at point blank range, when the bear has closed to handshaking distance. As would a back of the skull at the base of the neck hit.
With a good bullet.
Braking down the shoulder to stop the charge and perhaps changing the bears mind, can not be overlooked either.
In all instances if you do start shooting finsh the job...don't wait to see if your shot or shots will finish him off.....as long as you can see him and he is within range keep picking a vital spot and shoot again.
Often a bear will run off to cover, only to lie wounded and re-harass you again minutes later.
But let me conclude by saying. Most black bears would rather avoid confrontation at any expense.
And will often just pop their teeth,growl a little,and make short false charges.
It can last a few seconds or a few minutes, and more than once if the bear is extremely adjutated.
But that still doesn't mean a full attack, will take place.
If the bear comes in low,quiet,and fast get ready.Your luck may be about to change for the worst.
BUT.....try to forget about what you see on TV....and realise that the articles you read in some of the more popular sporting magazines are meant to excite you, and often the author doesn't know what the heck they are talking about.
Just as some will make the same statement about this posting.
As for MR. GRIZZ......I don't care what handgun you want to tote.
You best carry a good 12G slug gun...with those full copper slugs, "PURE POISIN".
Or a good 45-70 guide gun...I don't care how heavy the bastards are. Carry it!
Brown bears aka Grizzly.....do behave differantly than blacks.
My expertise is not sufficient to make recomendations here perhaps you will do independant research on them prior to entering their domain.
I hope this helps some, please forgive the spelling mistakes, I have little time to proof this post.
WOLF
j.s.parker
New member
I would never use a 9mm for bear defense. I was only responding to somebody who might. Actually, mountain lions are more of a threat than bears are. Oh boy, here we go! Ah heck I'm goin' to bed. Does anybody know of a "sledgehammer" load for a cougar? Years ago I think gov hunters were using .22 rimfires for cougar control. Good Night, j.s.
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