9mm vs .45ACP
- Thread starter Glock19Fan
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Mike Irwin
Staff
"While ballistic gel only gives an idea of what a round does while pushing through tissue"
Incorrect, really.
Ballistic gel equates to the average mean density of ALL tissues found in the body -- hard (bone), soft (fat) and in between (muscle).
Numerous people have tried to "improve" the performance of ballistic gel in the past by casting in bones, adding layers of fat, etc.
Most often, their efforts are wasted because bullet performance goes kerflooy (to use the technical term) because they've altered the average mean density of the testing product to where it no longer even remotely resembles what it's trying to replicate.
Incorrect, really.
Ballistic gel equates to the average mean density of ALL tissues found in the body -- hard (bone), soft (fat) and in between (muscle).
Numerous people have tried to "improve" the performance of ballistic gel in the past by casting in bones, adding layers of fat, etc.
Most often, their efforts are wasted because bullet performance goes kerflooy (to use the technical term) because they've altered the average mean density of the testing product to where it no longer even remotely resembles what it's trying to replicate.
OldMarksman
Staff
While kinetic energy is one of several important factors in penetration (along with bullet shape, bullet construction, and sectional density), energy "transfer" is not otherwise a meaningful performance measure in common handgun rounds.
I bought a .45 several years ago, primarily because I assumed that it was markedly supeerior to the 9MM, due to the Moro legend and other folklore. I still believe that the larger diameter has some advantage, but I'm not sure how much with JHPs.
jason_iowa
New member
That's the problem with gel is that its a consistent while human anatomy varies widely. I call it useless because it does not tell you what a bullet will do in real life scenarios. I prefer pig cadavers.
Gel will give you a baseline. Its a tool but not the end all be all is what I'm saying. Energy dump is another BS term. Hand gun rounds and most rifle rounds do not carry enough energy to "stop" a person. CNS hit, bp loss, shock is what stops a combatant.
In my experience 2 rounds of 45 was sufficient where as 6 rounds of 9 mil was needed (3 round bursts) to get the same effect. I only have a small sample to go on but that's why I carry a 45.
7.62x39 and the 5.45 are both superior to the 5.56 but the majority of american forces carry the 5.56. They are chose for political reasons not because of combat effectiveness. The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who do combat specifically for a living do not use 9/556 exclusively for a reason.
Gel will give you a baseline. Its a tool but not the end all be all is what I'm saying. Energy dump is another BS term. Hand gun rounds and most rifle rounds do not carry enough energy to "stop" a person. CNS hit, bp loss, shock is what stops a combatant.
In my experience 2 rounds of 45 was sufficient where as 6 rounds of 9 mil was needed (3 round bursts) to get the same effect. I only have a small sample to go on but that's why I carry a 45.
7.62x39 and the 5.45 are both superior to the 5.56 but the majority of american forces carry the 5.56. They are chose for political reasons not because of combat effectiveness. The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who do combat specifically for a living do not use 9/556 exclusively for a reason.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Nothing is the be all end all. Gel is far more repeatable AND consistent with actual results from actual shootings than any othertest medium.
If it weren't, it wouldnt be used as the defacto universal standard.
If it weren't, it wouldnt be used as the defacto universal standard.
Quote. 7.62x39 and the 5.45 are both superior to the 5.56 but the majority of american forces carry the 5.56. They are chose for political reasons not because of combat effectiveness. The soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who do combat specifically for a living do not use 9/556 exclusively for a reason.
What political reasons did they introduce the 5.56 for. ? The reasons i thought it was introduced for.
1 5.56 Is easier to control on full auto.
2 The ammo is lighter meaning the soldier could carry more ammo.
3 It made it possible to develop a smaller lighter rifle capable of controllable full auto fire.
4 Less recoil makes it easier to train conscripts accurate shooting.
I am sure their lots of other reasons. But i can't think of any political reasons.
What political reasons did they introduce the 5.56 for. ? The reasons i thought it was introduced for.
1 5.56 Is easier to control on full auto.
2 The ammo is lighter meaning the soldier could carry more ammo.
3 It made it possible to develop a smaller lighter rifle capable of controllable full auto fire.
4 Less recoil makes it easier to train conscripts accurate shooting.
I am sure their lots of other reasons. But i can't think of any political reasons.
jason_iowa
New member
Defense contractors lobby the pentagon just like they lobby congress. We don't choose our military gear based on what is qualitative or quantifiable the best or even the best value.
Temporary cavity and hydrostatic shock are both bs terms used to sell smaller higher velocity rounds over bigger slower more effective rounds. I'm not a 9mil hater I have given friends of mine 9s for their personal defense weapons. I'm planning on getting a friend of mine a shield in 9mil for her CC because she did well shooting one and liked it the best.
I personally would not carry it because I'm comfortable shooting anything if its the best I could carry then I would. To pretend that its equally lethal compared to a 45 is a fairy tale. Its not a huge margin as most handgun rounds are ineffectual compared to other small arms. We carry side arms because its convenient and easy to conceal not because they are effective weapons.
Temporary cavity and hydrostatic shock are both bs terms used to sell smaller higher velocity rounds over bigger slower more effective rounds. I'm not a 9mil hater I have given friends of mine 9s for their personal defense weapons. I'm planning on getting a friend of mine a shield in 9mil for her CC because she did well shooting one and liked it the best.
I personally would not carry it because I'm comfortable shooting anything if its the best I could carry then I would. To pretend that its equally lethal compared to a 45 is a fairy tale. Its not a huge margin as most handgun rounds are ineffectual compared to other small arms. We carry side arms because its convenient and easy to conceal not because they are effective weapons.
I don't see it as a fairy tale, unless we're talking about FMJ. If that's the case, we're in complete agreement. Friends of mine who have used them in combat have said the same thing you are about 9 vs .45 FMJ performance.
Given Gold Dots, the playing filed is substantially more even. I've seen texts against all kinds of media, from gel to flesh & bone, and Gold Dots have never failed to expand beyond the size of a dime in them. Dump a few 124gr (+P or standard) into pigs, and I am confident that they'll do what they do in every test.
Given Gold Dots, the playing filed is substantially more even. I've seen texts against all kinds of media, from gel to flesh & bone, and Gold Dots have never failed to expand beyond the size of a dime in them. Dump a few 124gr (+P or standard) into pigs, and I am confident that they'll do what they do in every test.
Glock19Fan
New member
To keep things simple, i would like to hear in your own words why the .45 "outperformed" the 9mm in this test.
I am also interested in hearing why you think the 5.45 is superior to the 5.56. Frommy experience the m855a1 is performing very well in afghanistan.
I am also extremely interesting in hearing how any service member managed to be in "combat" with not just one handgun caliber but TWO. when there is rarely any reason whatsoever anyone should every have to use their handgun when a rifle and multiple magazines are available.
I am also interested in hearing why you think the 5.45 is superior to the 5.56. Frommy experience the m855a1 is performing very well in afghanistan.
I am also extremely interesting in hearing how any service member managed to be in "combat" with not just one handgun caliber but TWO. when there is rarely any reason whatsoever anyone should every have to use their handgun when a rifle and multiple magazines are available.
bluetopper
New member
I wonder how my cast lead reloads in 9mm and 45acp would perform?
In gelatin......I wouldn't doubt I could recover the bullets and load them up again.
In gelatin......I wouldn't doubt I could recover the bullets and load them up again.
Tactical Jackalope
New member
Bingo...Sorry to say this reality, but that handgun is a last resort and a near death tool in that battle field.
While "hydrostatic shock" may fit your description, depending on your choice of experts; "temporary cavity" is most certainly not a "bs term". It's true that the effects of temporary cavity are variable depending on the tissue involved, but it certainly exists and it certainly has an effect. In some cases that effect may not be significant, in other cases it is demonstrably devastating. That is true even when discussing handgun calibers.
Given that both calibers penetrated nearly identical amounts and expanded to virtually identical diameters, both bullets transferred their energy to the tissue in more or less identical fashion. If we assume that the initial impact energies were roughly similar, there's not any way to scientifically say that one of the two rounds applied more or less force to the target medium or affected more or less tissue.
These two rounds may not be representative of the two calibers under discussion, but it's certainly true that if we limit the focus to these two bullets, the testing shows that their performance-by any metric one chooses to employ-is essentially indistinguishable.
Even as a declared "9mm guy", I have to say that I know at least one of the guys I have heard comment on 9mm vs .45 in combat (all using 9mm FMJ) well enough to believe him when he says that he used each. He carried an M4 and an M9 while enlisted, and "an HK416 and a .45" as a contractor. Last time I talked to him was a few months ago. I never thought to ask if he was able to use JHPs when he switched over.
I don't know specific situations, because he was always dismissive about pistols-- he doesn't generally care about them. He said something like, "I don't know why they bothered to give us ____ 9s. They're pretty much worthless without hollow points."
and
"it's different with a .45. You can see it. You touch a guy a couple times with one, and he's either down or done trying to do what he was doing."
Not verbatim, but along those lines.
The only times he ever showed excitement about guns were talking about getting an HK416, and getting to train on... forgive my lack of familiarity, but something in the same class as an m60, I believe. He got fired up, and said something like, "when you get on that thing, you really know it's a ____ weapon! It's ____! That was cool!"
That's pretty much all I can offer on the combat use of 9 and .45, because this:
"Hey, J.D., tell me about when you shot people with pistols, so I can tell people about it on the Internet."
is a conversation that will never happen.
Other guys I've heard comment on it... It's possible that they're full of it. One guy said he was a sniper, and carried an M9, but switched to a 1911 at some point after having shot someone (failing to kill) with the 9mm. I don't know him well, at all. Maybe it's bunk.
Ultimately, it's irrelevant, anyway. We have access to SD rounds, so I am able to confidently carry my SR9c.
/shrug
I don't know specific situations, because he was always dismissive about pistols-- he doesn't generally care about them. He said something like, "I don't know why they bothered to give us ____ 9s. They're pretty much worthless without hollow points."
and
"it's different with a .45. You can see it. You touch a guy a couple times with one, and he's either down or done trying to do what he was doing."
Not verbatim, but along those lines.
The only times he ever showed excitement about guns were talking about getting an HK416, and getting to train on... forgive my lack of familiarity, but something in the same class as an m60, I believe. He got fired up, and said something like, "when you get on that thing, you really know it's a ____ weapon! It's ____! That was cool!"
That's pretty much all I can offer on the combat use of 9 and .45, because this:
"Hey, J.D., tell me about when you shot people with pistols, so I can tell people about it on the Internet."
is a conversation that will never happen.
Other guys I've heard comment on it... It's possible that they're full of it. One guy said he was a sniper, and carried an M9, but switched to a 1911 at some point after having shot someone (failing to kill) with the 9mm. I don't know him well, at all. Maybe it's bunk.
Ultimately, it's irrelevant, anyway. We have access to SD rounds, so I am able to confidently carry my SR9c.
/shrug
2000ShadowACE
New member
I like the test. As an owner of both calibers It shows me that I can be confident with both. However, my comfort zone is with the .45. My .45 Taurus OSS delivers less felt recoil than my daughter's Taurus OSS in 9mm. Therefore, if I recah for a gun, it will always be th .45 because I am more comfortable with it.
jason_iowa
New member
9mil in sub machine gun, 45 in sidearm.
5.45 tends to rotate when it hits so it really makes a mess of things. I don't know if this was an intended result of the design or just a happy coincidence.
RBid described pretty much my exact sentiment on handguns. We carry them because they are convenient not for their overall effectiveness. They are quick to deploy and easy to maneuver in confined spaces.
5.45 tends to rotate when it hits so it really makes a mess of things. I don't know if this was an intended result of the design or just a happy coincidence.
RBid described pretty much my exact sentiment on handguns. We carry them because they are convenient not for their overall effectiveness. They are quick to deploy and easy to maneuver in confined spaces.
Same here, the sidearm is a last desperate act to survive or an act of desperation to fight your way to the rifle. I love watching rifle/carbine transition to pistol drills on youtube and wondering why would a sane man drop his rifle to shoot with his pistol when it's still working?
5R milspec
New member
OK back to reworld stuff.first off we know the 9mm and 45 will kill.the biggest and most important thing to count on here would be this.for anyone who wants to or does carry a pistol should carry what they are most comforable with.( no matter what it is ) me I love my 9mm so I carry it.my wife on the other hand hatted my 9mm so she carries a 380.
my reason for the most part of posting this is this.it doesn't matter how many people think the 45 or even a 500 is the best to carry.if you are scared of it or hate the recoil its just not a good idea to carry it.one should only carry a pistol that they can handle and shoot the best with no matter what cal. it is.by doing so they will be able to place the bullet more accurately with out thinking its going to hurt or just being scared of it.
I'd rather take my chances with some one who has no idea about what a 45 is going to do,or hate's shooting a 45 all together.rather than a guy who shoots his 9mm or what he likes to shoot all the time.( knowing what its going to do everytime he pull the trigger )
my reason for the most part of posting this is this.it doesn't matter how many people think the 45 or even a 500 is the best to carry.if you are scared of it or hate the recoil its just not a good idea to carry it.one should only carry a pistol that they can handle and shoot the best with no matter what cal. it is.by doing so they will be able to place the bullet more accurately with out thinking its going to hurt or just being scared of it.
I'd rather take my chances with some one who has no idea about what a 45 is going to do,or hate's shooting a 45 all together.rather than a guy who shoots his 9mm or what he likes to shoot all the time.( knowing what its going to do everytime he pull the trigger )