9mm vs. .357 Sig

G

Gary L. Griffiths

New member
I currently have a Kel-Tec P-11 in 9mm that I'm very fond of, although I'm not all that thrilled with the 9mm cartridge. I tried getting a P-40 conversion kit for it, but it wouldn't feed reliably after several trips to Kel-Tec. They claimed I was "limp wristing" it. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

I've been told that Kel-Tec makes a .357 Sig barrel for the P-40 conversion, which functions far more reliably due to the bottleneck .357 case. I'm tempted to get one as a last-ditch effort to get a little more stopping power out of the beast. I really liked the idea of the P-40, even though the recoil was on the violent side of harsh.

My question is, has anyone had experience with this round in a short barrelled weapon like the Kel-Tec? Does it really give significantly more stopping power than the 9mm, given similar bullet weights (124-gr)? Has anyone had experience with the reliaility of this caliber in a Kel-Tec pistol?

All thoughts appreciated.
 
Yep a 357 Sig is more powerful than a 9mm about 200 ft pre second w/ +P loads. But the increase in power dosen't warrant paying twice as much for practice ammo. For me a 9 is fine.
 
In the test that I have, both calibers(9mm vs .357Sig) fired out of a 4.02 inch Glock barrel. Glock-19 and 32
Federal .9mm P9CSP1, 123grain, average velocity = 1062fps
Federal Premium 125gr .357Sig, average velocity = 1310fps

I use the Cor-Bon .357SIG, 125gr JHP average velocity = 1411fps
expanding to an average diameter of .62 inchs with 4- layer denim over a 8x8x18.5 inch Vyse gelatin block.
 
The 357 SIG has been getting good street stats from agencies, and it has been tested quite a bit in labs. Some of the more well known agencies using the 357 SIG are: Federal Air Marshals, United States Secret Service, and the Texas DPS, to name a few. And some of the agencies using the 357 SIG have already fired rounds totaling in the millions.

I doubt if these agencies would be using the 357 SIG if the over all effect is nothing more than a good 9mm round in a typical 9mm pistol (dah: they'd just use a 9mm pistol instead) :) On the other hand, 357 SIG folks often use the same reasoning that the 10mm FBI folks originally did, namely that the 10mm has more potential than the .45 and later the smaller cased .40 round (ditto comparing the 357 SIG with the 9mm). That reasoning didn't work too well for the health of the 10. But the 357 SIG has the advantage of fitting in 9mm sized pistols and easily swapping barrels with a .40 (magazine permitting). In fact, the 357 SIG has gone a lot farther than the 10mm ever did (and the 10 is a fantastic round, please don't misunderstand me), and the 357 SIG continues to slowly make new inroads and continue expanding in the market, despite all the naysayers.

If you could also count the tens of thousands of 357 SIG aftermarket barrels out there, besides actual factory 357 SIG caliber based pistols sold, it becomes a very significant number. There's a reason why there are so many ammo companies producing 357 SIG ammo now.

One other thing to remember about guns in general, especially the 357 SIG: The smaller and lighter the pistol gets, the more you will feel that recoil. I mean, I wouldn't want to shoot 300 rounds of 357 SIG in one session with the little Glock 33. Yet, I love to practice with the G33 in smaller doses because it's an amazing back-up pistol.
 
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Still, Petey's cheerleading aside, those folks are having more ammo related probs w the 357SIG ammo and guns than they ever did w the 9mm if ya dig deep enough and get past the PR. Know of more kBd 357s w just a handful of PDs/agencies than all the PDs/agencies using 9s I can think of for example. ;)

Is the 357SIG "better" as far as terminal ballistics and "stopping power" war stories? A little to a lot depending on what ya measure and how. Is it really better enough to outweigh the extra hassle, risk, and expense? Only you can decide.

Looking at the gel stats and listening to the war sories comparing the 357SIG Ranger and Gold Dot to the 9mm +P Ranger and Gold Dot, the nine is still nifty enough for me! YMMV. ;)
 
I'm with my friend Broken Arrow and other's, as the time-
tested 9m/m can do anything I want it to do. If it can't,
I'm sure the .45 ACP can. That's why my duelling pistols
are both Sig's; P220 and P228.:cool: :D :)

Best 4 ya,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
.357Sigs are essentially very hot nines. At least as far as the target is concerned. As such they perform admirably.
 
Well, Mikey, lets check out the 357 SIG in a 100 years (the current age of the 9mm), and see how it's doing ;) I'm sure the 9 was perfect in it's first 8 years of existence, right.

Remember all the horror stories when the .40 came out in '90. It looked like the caliber from hell, even though everybody still jumped on it. Well, pistols have improved along with the ammo, thank goodness. OK, ok, you still get a fair amount of .40 kabooms going on, but there's some well built forties out there that can group in the 1.5" to 2.5" arena now.
 
.357 Sig should avail an added benefit regards chambering as a bottlenecked cartridge.

It has added benefit regards a semi-auto at .357 mag performance - both, a goodly plus.

I do wish I had the BHP .40 S&W barrel/upper so I could play around with it.

But, I do not feel the lack, being saddled with "just" a 9mm.

Placement of a decent enough bullet in the right spot makes all the difference - no matter the caliber (although I'd just as soon have a "good 'un = to be decided .... )

Handguns are notorious (they do suck) as "stoppers," they are merely very convenient.

Repeat as necessary. Do it again - you'll likely need it, no matter the (pistol) caliber.

A decent .38 Special/9mm will, properly placed (THE distinction here), get the job done.

Yup. The .357 Mag 125 gr JHP is THE definative one-stop-shopper, & the .357 Sig seems to have all that, but ... I still don't see much difference between that ~95% & a ~91% for a decent 9mm ....
 
Trade your gun in for a Sig 40/357 P229 in two tone finish. That way you can have a .40 caliber with the P229. With a switch of the barrel, you have a .357 P229.

sigpacker.jpg


:)
 
I think the reliability myth of bottle-necked cartridge is just that--myth and hype. There are theorectical feeding advantages to the bottleneck cartridge. but there are also theoretical feeding disadvanantages to a bottle-neck cartridge. It the real-world, reliabilty is a wash with all quality, well-maintained weapons regardless of calibre.

The 357 Sig does not offer .357 Magnum performance (close maybe in the service-sized weapons--and with only one loading of the .357 Magnum--but certainly not with the poster's weapon).

If the poster found the .40's recoil "on the violent side of harsh," then the 357 Sig is definitely contraindicated--the recoil of the Sig is similar to the .40 S&W, and the Sig has more muzzle blast and muzzle flip--not to mention, it will much harder on his weapon as well which will ultimately lead to reliability problems. The people who are prescribing the 357 Sig to the poster are prescribing a round with which he will probably develop and heck of a flinch; he will not practice enough due to cost and the unpleasant experience of shooting it in his weapon; and will shorten the service life/reliability of his weapons. Sometimes, "true-believers" need a reality check.
Does it really give significantly more stopping power than the 9mm, given similar bullet weights (124-gr)?
Click to expand...
Quoted from Tactical Forums http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html

What does the .357 Sig offer which is not already available? Are we missing something?

We have not observed any better performance with the .357 Sig than with the better 9mm loads; the better .40 S&W loads appear to offer superior performance compared with the .357 Sig. Buford Boone at the FBI Academy and I have compared our respective test data on the .357 Sig--our results are nearly identical. The best .357 Sig load appears to be the 125gr Gold Dot JHP. In both the FBI testing and our assessment, it offers virtually IDENTICAL performance as the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in both bare gelatin and through the various intermediate barriers. Likewise, the 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP offers similar terminal performance. The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance, although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon. Both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP make larger holes in the target and therefore have the potential to more rapidly incapacitate an aggressive adversary in a lethal force encounter. In addition, the greater mass of the .40 S&W and .45 ACP bullets offer an improved chance of defeating an intervening obstacle while still having enough penetration to reach the vital organs of an armed opponent. I fully agree with Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice.”
Click to expand...
The poster would be better advised to switch 147-grain Remington Golden Sabre for carry and spend all the money he would spend on another new barrel for his weapon (and higher priced ammo) on good low-cost practice ammo and maybe some good training.
 
Quote:
>>>"I fully agree with Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice".

If the 357 Sig is not a great cartridge or a lousy cartridge, then it must be a good cartridge, just like the 9mm, 10mm, .40, .45, 38 Special, & .357 Magnum. That's really excellent news. Thanks for the heads up ;)

And Juliet Charley is correct that if you think a .40 is harsh, then you probably won't want to shoot a 357 Sig, especially in a small pistol (I mentioned the same thing above). I am not currently aware of low recoil 357 Sig factory ammo in the market, although some reloaders are well stocked ;)
 
A kit for a kit. Interesting.

I have to admit I am biased... I don't like Kel-Tecs. So of course my suggestion is trading it in.

The Sig 229 suggestion is a good one.
 
Thanks to all who responded. In view of the relatively small velocity increase in the .357, likely to be further truncated by the short barrel of the Kel-Tec, I think I'll stick with the 9mm. Plus, the P-11 will hold 2 more 9mms than .357s.

Recoil with the .40 was very stiff, but manageable. Wouldn't want to shoot a couple of hundred rounds a day in practice with it, but then the Kel-Tec isn't a target gun by any definition.

Ammo cost isn't a major factor, as I wouldn't be shooting that many .357 loads annually. Would mostly practice with the 9mm -- same balance, trigger pull, etc. This just saves me the trouble and extra expense for the barrel.

Yes, of course, I'd rather have a Sig 239, either in .40 or .357. Anyone have one they'll sell me for $250? Meanwhile the Kel-Tec does what it's supposed to do.

Oh, yeah, anyone want to buy a .40 conversion kit? Maybe it will work with your gun! ;)
 
Gary L. Griffiths:

I have the KelTec in .357 SIG and carry it daily. It started out life as a P40 which is the same as your P11 with the .40 S&W conversion kit. Now, all you have to do to convert that to the .357 SIG is get KelTec to send you the .357 SIG barrel and go to Wolff springs for their heavier spring set.

I love my P357, but, yes, the recoil is crisp. The recoil from a S&W Model 29 in .44 Mag is more severe, but not by much. I can shoot 2" - 3" groups with my KelTec for about 75-100 rounds then my nervous system begins to rebel. ;) On the other hand, it works reliably... all the time. I've never had any kind of failure with the P357.

Would I rather have a Sig P245? Yes, I would. Do I trust that my P357 will do the job? You betcha! And it flat disappears on my hip.

Get the barrel, get the springs. It'll work for you. Besides, it'll give you three choices... all of them good ones.

If you don't want to deal with the recoil, forget the 357 SIG. Take your .40 conversion kit to the next gun show and sell it to another P11 owner. They're out there. If you can't find them, go to www.ktog.org and post that you have the conversion. Somebody will snap it up.

Mac
 
Oh, yeah, anyone want to buy a .40 conversion kit? Maybe it will work with your gun!
Click to expand...
FWIW, Keltec discontinued the .40 pistol, the buzz was that they were having too many problems. Most likely, too much power in such a small gun...
 
I'm curious, does anyone have specific examples of kb'med or broken .357 Sigs? It's a hot round so I wouldn't be that surprised but I'd rather hear specific examples than the usual my-brother-knew-someone-whose-cousin-had-a-friend-who-said.............

BTW, I'm a big .357 Sig fan but in something like the KelTec I'd prefer the 9mm.
 
I heard the Secret Service blew a case w Winchester ammo, the Delaware State Police has had three kBs w Speer ammo. Mention on Glock Talk of a guy's PD who had several w Speer ammo in Glocks during Qs (search around over there). Over on www.ammolab.com they had a Hornady 147 XTP blow the case in a G32 (and go through the screens at 1800 fps!?). Have a nifty pic of a Glock w a ruptured bbl w Speer Blazer ammo. The first lots of Rem UMC ammo were pretty bad; saw that stuffblow several times on local ranges in Glocks and SIGs. Know of a PD that was having a lot of probs w CorBon 115/357SIG in their SIGs (check w the guys on calibers-l).

Seems to be more problematic than the 9mm is now; maybe in a hundred yrs it will be better, eh Pete?

I've seen lottsa of ammo go through lottsa pistols in the hands of lottsa shooters on public, private, LE and military ranges the last 25 yrs in this country and abroad. Have seen probs w everything, but the 40SW/357SIG is definitley in the lead. What is significant isn't how many have not had problems, it's how many have?

You are probably more likely to have an ammo related prob w the 40/357 than the 9/45, but you are probably more likely to have a car accident on the way to/from the range than either. Doesn't mean ya should walk? Those who dare, win?

It's riskier, so what? To some it's more than worth it; that's fine. It's the delusional denial that there is no difference at all I think is silly.

BTW, I will say the same thing about 9mm std pressure ammo v +P/+P+, but I still shoot and carry plenty of that! ;)
 
Mike, 92 years should do it now ;)

Back in '93, the Portland, Oregon Range Officer compared the .45 to a truck and the 9mm to a Beetle (he favored the 9mm by the way). He said it doesn't really matter if you get hit by a truck travelling 30 mph or a Beetle travelling 55 mph. They'll both take you out.
 
.357 SIG ...

Thoughts, observations & questions ...

Velocity?
If it's velocity you want to compare, the Winchester T Load in 127gr +P+ leaves the barrel of a 4" duty pistol at an honest 1250 fps, allowing for reasonable deviation. Other +P loads aren't that anemic compared to the .357SIG, either. And according to increasingly available testing, the slight velocity edge attributed to the .357SIG isn't of that much more value in real world practicality.

Energy?
Slight edge in energy over the better & faster 9mm rounds ... but what is the energy actually going to accomplish in semi-fluid mediums? I suppose if there's enough of it you might raise the temperature a fraction of a degree, since energy shed by a moving object can be transformed into heat ... Velocity does help rounds penetrate intermediate barriers, and/or over-penetrate soft targets, after a certain point. Bullet designers are working wonders making bullets that perform consistently within very predictable and specific velocity windows ... but ... something to consider is that in both gelatin testing & "actual" situations it hasn't yet demonstrated any fundamental quantitative improvement in performance over many modern designed 9mm rounds, which benefit from the same engineering efforts. These are only handgun rounds ...

Reliability?
Yes, no, maybe ... who's setting the parameters? The important thing that it all comes down to for my consideration, though, is the design of the short bottle neck of this pistol cartridge case, and the problems that have been accumulating around the country. There have been instances where bullets were set back into the case during chambering, without being fired. It makes you wonder if this same situation might have been responsible for some of the catastrophic results about which we've been hearing. In some instances it appears bullets were able to be pushed down into the case by finger pressure. I'd like more answers to these claimed problems.

Until the manufacturers have proven they can produce modern bottle necked pistol cases that consistently tightly seal around the bullet at the case mouth, at least to the same degree as other well established pistol ammunition, I'm concerned about the potential for catastrophic chamber pressures resulting from bullet set-back. This concern, coupled with the seeming lack of stellar improvement over many existing calibers, and those without the increased muzzle blast & perceived recoil of this "magnumized" pistol round, is enough to make me remain with the 9mm, .40S&W and .45 ACP for the time being.

.357SIG ... Kind of makes you wonder why we're not all carrying .30 Luger, doesn't it?
 
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