Just looking at defensive ammo for my CZ the other day and happened to notice the 124 grn. +P+ (can't remeber which brand) had a velocity of 1200 fps. I then checked some .357 magnum Federal Hydrashoks, 130 grains at 1300 fps. So what gives ? Why is the .357 magnum considered one of the top defensive rounds, while the 9mm is considered a weak round ? Does 100-200fps plus or minus a few grains really make that big of a difference ?
9mm vs .357 magnum
- Thread starter MTAA
- Start date
The .357Mag has a legendary name and it was an incredible round when it came out. I'm surprised that 124gr +P+ was only rated at 1200fps. That's +P territory.
+P+ (out of a 4+ inch barrel) should be 1300+ fps. You get more of a variety of weights out of a .357 Mag. But you can hold 3 times the number of rounds with an "orig cap" magazine if you went with a 9mm.
Ben
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+P+ (out of a 4+ inch barrel) should be 1300+ fps. You get more of a variety of weights out of a .357 Mag. But you can hold 3 times the number of rounds with an "orig cap" magazine if you went with a 9mm.
Ben
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Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Hello. I'd noticed the same thing after chronographing various .357 mag loads and comparing them with hotter 9mm loadings. They were essentially the same with a slight edge in most, but not all cases, going to the .357 magnum. I should also note here that I was using a Browning HP and CZ-75 for the 9mm rounds tested and a 3 1/2" bbl S&W M27 for the .357 mag. Obviously, the nines had a bit of a headstart in that they had slightly longer bbls. Best.
It's interesting that others have thought about this also, but I recently ventured back into the 9mm territory(already shoot/reload for 357, 40 and 45) because of my belief that a hot 9mm is pushing up very close to the 357 mag with a greater capacity firearm and less felt recoil. I bought a very new but used USP9 with a 15 round magazine. The USP chamber is fully supported and the walls are noticeably thick. I have fired Factory Rem 115 +P+ through it and clocked them at 1230 fps. It's not bad but it's not close to a 357. The interesting thing is that in the USP this was a pussy cat round(the extra buffer spring works great) and the primers gave no indication they were at even +P levels let alone +P+. I bought 1K of Rem 124 gr MCs to work up some hot 9 loads with. I'm not interested in reloading 357 Sig if I can come close in ballistics to the 357 Mag using the old "paltry" 9mm!!
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I have read several sources that relate the differences between 9mm and 357Mag are quite small when launched from short barrel arms eg. J frames, SP101. I would not want to load bottlenecked handgun rounds that require lubing unless there was a significant advantage. 357sig, an answer to a question only the Marketing Department would ask?
Are we comparing apples to apples here? For instance, would a real test be to load a .357 cartridge to the same relatively high pressures that the 9mm shell is loaded to? Meaning that if a +P+ in 9mm is loaded to, say, 115% of the standard 9mm load, should we load a .357Mag the same way & then compare results?
I have to be honest, I was never a 9x19 fan and always stood in the .45 or .40 camp. But to me, the .357 is about the sweetest shooting cartridge especially when you consider its performance. My Klinton & Whimpy 686 is about the nicest shooting gun I own.
I have to be honest, I was never a 9x19 fan and always stood in the .45 or .40 camp. But to me, the .357 is about the sweetest shooting cartridge especially when you consider its performance. My Klinton & Whimpy 686 is about the nicest shooting gun I own.
CoastieN70
New member
I have to agree with MacAttack about the apples to apples thing.
+P+ 9mm is not a load available to the general public and is supose to be a Law Enforcement Only load (yah, rite). But all that aside you're pumping extra pressure into brass that isn't designed or manufactured for that pressure and fireing from weapons not designed to handle those pressures. From an engineering and safety standpoint, not good. Oh sure the HK USP will handle it but how about most of the other pieces out there. For a time all is well, then KaBoom!
You want 357 Mag performance from an auto loader then the 357 Sig is the way to go (and keep the marketing ploy balony! You can use the same arguement for the .40 S&W being a 10mm knockoff) THe 357 Sig is not a necked down .40. The brass is thicker in design to handle the higher pressure. There is no +P or +P+ because it is unnecessary. It does the job the way it was designed.
For the average self defence scenario a stock 9mm is more than enough, hell .32 acp gets the job done. Face it, like everything else we Americans think bigger is better. Believe me, the bad guy will be just as dead when shot from 3-7 meters with a .32acp or .45acp and everything in between. And the arguement that it may be necessary to take out multiple targets at greater distances does not lend itself to self defence but a LE sceniero in which case you'd have a badge, Department issued weapon, and multiple reloads.
My choices for personal protection are H&K Compact 357 Sig most of the time and Beretta Tomcat .32acp when the HK is too big to conceal.
+P+ 9mm is not a load available to the general public and is supose to be a Law Enforcement Only load (yah, rite). But all that aside you're pumping extra pressure into brass that isn't designed or manufactured for that pressure and fireing from weapons not designed to handle those pressures. From an engineering and safety standpoint, not good. Oh sure the HK USP will handle it but how about most of the other pieces out there. For a time all is well, then KaBoom!
You want 357 Mag performance from an auto loader then the 357 Sig is the way to go (and keep the marketing ploy balony! You can use the same arguement for the .40 S&W being a 10mm knockoff) THe 357 Sig is not a necked down .40. The brass is thicker in design to handle the higher pressure. There is no +P or +P+ because it is unnecessary. It does the job the way it was designed.
For the average self defence scenario a stock 9mm is more than enough, hell .32 acp gets the job done. Face it, like everything else we Americans think bigger is better. Believe me, the bad guy will be just as dead when shot from 3-7 meters with a .32acp or .45acp and everything in between. And the arguement that it may be necessary to take out multiple targets at greater distances does not lend itself to self defence but a LE sceniero in which case you'd have a badge, Department issued weapon, and multiple reloads.
My choices for personal protection are H&K Compact 357 Sig most of the time and Beretta Tomcat .32acp when the HK is too big to conceal.
Uh guys, 9mm has it's place. I reload 124gr gold dot and golden sabres to 1200+ speeds(6.5 grs power pistol). Keep in mind that that is out of a 4.9 inch beretta 92FS barrel. I've toyed with hotter loadings, but the extra 50-100 fps that can be had IS NOT WORTH IT.
.357 mag is a TOTALLY different story. Compare firing a 125gr loaded to 1750 fps(14 grs blue dot) to a .355(9mm) going 1250fps...you get the idea.
Later,
DW
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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Rudyard Kipling
.357 mag is a TOTALLY different story. Compare firing a 125gr loaded to 1750 fps(14 grs blue dot) to a .355(9mm) going 1250fps...you get the idea.
Later,
DW
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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Rudyard Kipling
Guy B. Meredith
New member
Basically what you are doing with hot 9mm is paralleling the development of the .357 mag from the .38 spl. The .357 mag case is longer to prevent use in guns designed for milder pressures of the .38 spl and I suppose you would go the same route after a point with the hot 9mm.
Steve Smith
New member
Two things:
1. By shooting 9mm+P+ loads, you will begin to tear a lot of guns up (some, like the Rugers, will still be fine,I guess) whereas a .357 Mag revo will shoot .357's for 30 years and keep on ticking (it's built for it).
2. You're operating at the upper limit of what a 9mm can do, as opposed to the bottom limit of the .357 Mag. I'm not a .357 fan, but I still see the true power it has.
1. By shooting 9mm+P+ loads, you will begin to tear a lot of guns up (some, like the Rugers, will still be fine,I guess) whereas a .357 Mag revo will shoot .357's for 30 years and keep on ticking (it's built for it).
2. You're operating at the upper limit of what a 9mm can do, as opposed to the bottom limit of the .357 Mag. I'm not a .357 fan, but I still see the true power it has.
Intensity, safety, reliability and shootability.
Roughly...125 gr 9mm +P+ = 125 gr 38 special +P = 125 gr 357 mag mild load. 200 round match with 125 gr at 1200 fps out of my 686 is very comfortable and knocks the steel targets down smartly with little strain on the gun.
The 9mm at the outer limits is practically the starting point for the 357 mag.
I like em all but favor wheelguns.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
Roughly...125 gr 9mm +P+ = 125 gr 38 special +P = 125 gr 357 mag mild load. 200 round match with 125 gr at 1200 fps out of my 686 is very comfortable and knocks the steel targets down smartly with little strain on the gun.
The 9mm at the outer limits is practically the starting point for the 357 mag.
I like em all but favor wheelguns.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
Interesting answers. If you reread my post, you'll notice I'm comparing top of the line defensive loads for each caliber.
130 grn Hydrashok .357 = 1300 fps
124 grn (?) 9mm+p = 1200 fps
158 grn American Eagle High Velocity .357 = 1250 fps.
Can you get 1750 fps out of the .357 ? Probably, but it would very likely blow your gun to pieces and be almost impossible to shoot (Excluding N frames). I posted what I consider to be top of the line defensive factory loads. We could go on and on about reloads, but what peaked my interest was the minimal delineation in factory ammo. Could anyone post the fps for Federal Hydrashok 124. grn 9mm+p ?
I agree its unfair to compare +p+p+ loads to what is considered "mild", however I would say +p 9mm is a pretty common load, and I'm not being excessive. What could be learned here is that the much vaunted .357 has been loaded down over the years. Should we start writing letters to Federal and other top of the line manufacturers ? I dunno, but I do know this friends, modern .357 factory ammo doesn't have much on modern 9mm+p loads.
And yes, the .357 sig does sound like a good resolution, but thats off the topic. I'm just concerned about what I own
.
130 grn Hydrashok .357 = 1300 fps
124 grn (?) 9mm+p = 1200 fps
158 grn American Eagle High Velocity .357 = 1250 fps.
Can you get 1750 fps out of the .357 ? Probably, but it would very likely blow your gun to pieces and be almost impossible to shoot (Excluding N frames). I posted what I consider to be top of the line defensive factory loads. We could go on and on about reloads, but what peaked my interest was the minimal delineation in factory ammo. Could anyone post the fps for Federal Hydrashok 124. grn 9mm+p ?
I agree its unfair to compare +p+p+ loads to what is considered "mild", however I would say +p 9mm is a pretty common load, and I'm not being excessive. What could be learned here is that the much vaunted .357 has been loaded down over the years. Should we start writing letters to Federal and other top of the line manufacturers ? I dunno, but I do know this friends, modern .357 factory ammo doesn't have much on modern 9mm+p loads.
And yes, the .357 sig does sound like a good resolution, but thats off the topic. I'm just concerned about what I own
"Can you get 1750 fps out of the .357 ? Probably, but it would very likely blow your gun to pieces and be almost impossible to shoot (Excluding N frames)."
"What could be learned here is that the much vaunted .357 has been loaded down over the years"
That is exactly why I reload.
1750fps CAN be achieved...all you have do is use slower burning powders. 14 grains of blue dot isn't even a max load... Surprisingly, recoil is much greater with those the light weight polymer/alloy guns. Try firing 200 grain silulette loads! 9mm is NOTHING compared to those....
Unless they start building the guns stronger 9mm ain't gonna get any faster.....
DW
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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Rudyard Kipling
[This message has been edited by Deathwish (edited April 25, 2000).]
"What could be learned here is that the much vaunted .357 has been loaded down over the years"
That is exactly why I reload.
1750fps CAN be achieved...all you have do is use slower burning powders. 14 grains of blue dot isn't even a max load... Surprisingly, recoil is much greater with those the light weight polymer/alloy guns. Try firing 200 grain silulette loads! 9mm is NOTHING compared to those....
Unless they start building the guns stronger 9mm ain't gonna get any faster.....
DW
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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Rudyard Kipling
[This message has been edited by Deathwish (edited April 25, 2000).]
Let me begin by being biased.
"I can take a Honda Civic, turbo charge it (+p+) and make it go as fast as a Porsche"
1) Yes you can.
2) You are __still__ shooting a 9mm though
3) You've pushed it beyond the safety limits of it's design specs
4) It's +p+ loads that make the Law makers say that guns are dangerous, because of the frequency of kb!
5) Because of the "violence" of the 357 round, the guns, brass, and chambers were designed with that in mind.
Most rounds were a "compromise" in design. The 357Sig was a design from the ground up.
357Sig design specs:
1) Increase reliability
2) Matching muzzle velocity as the 357Mag
3) Maintain usability in terms of size
4) Easy path of upgrades
They increased reliability by making it necked down, which allows for a fully supported chamber because the bullet itself is the feeding ramp. They matched (exceeded) the specs of a 357Mag, this way, they can use the .357Mag balistics to prove stopping power. They kept it small so you can have it in a concealed weapon. The real kicker was that the path to upgrade usually was a switch from a .40S&W to a .357Sig barrel, that's it.
Superior design in every way, the .357Sig.
the 9x19 has it's place. But those who say that there's the 9mm and so we don't need a 357Sig or (357Sig is an answer without a question) doesn't understand the problems it addresses.
Most Glock kb! happen in the .40 why? Because unsupported chambers. Wouldn't it help if the feed ramp was ON the bullet? Wouldn't it help if you wanted to buy a new gun to instead of buying a gun, simply spend $100, get a new drop-in barrel and have a new gun for $100? Don't you want to shoot someone and actually drop him without going +p+ and possibly risking having the bullet blow up in your hands?
357Sig Rocks.
Albert
"I can take a Honda Civic, turbo charge it (+p+) and make it go as fast as a Porsche"
1) Yes you can.
2) You are __still__ shooting a 9mm though
3) You've pushed it beyond the safety limits of it's design specs
4) It's +p+ loads that make the Law makers say that guns are dangerous, because of the frequency of kb!
5) Because of the "violence" of the 357 round, the guns, brass, and chambers were designed with that in mind.
Most rounds were a "compromise" in design. The 357Sig was a design from the ground up.
357Sig design specs:
1) Increase reliability
2) Matching muzzle velocity as the 357Mag
3) Maintain usability in terms of size
4) Easy path of upgrades
They increased reliability by making it necked down, which allows for a fully supported chamber because the bullet itself is the feeding ramp. They matched (exceeded) the specs of a 357Mag, this way, they can use the .357Mag balistics to prove stopping power. They kept it small so you can have it in a concealed weapon. The real kicker was that the path to upgrade usually was a switch from a .40S&W to a .357Sig barrel, that's it.
Superior design in every way, the .357Sig.
the 9x19 has it's place. But those who say that there's the 9mm and so we don't need a 357Sig or (357Sig is an answer without a question) doesn't understand the problems it addresses.
Most Glock kb! happen in the .40 why? Because unsupported chambers. Wouldn't it help if the feed ramp was ON the bullet? Wouldn't it help if you wanted to buy a new gun to instead of buying a gun, simply spend $100, get a new drop-in barrel and have a new gun for $100? Don't you want to shoot someone and actually drop him without going +p+ and possibly risking having the bullet blow up in your hands?
357Sig Rocks.
Albert
Actually the comparison is a good one. The 1999 Autopistols ( Glock Annual) lists the Federal 124 +p+ Hydra-Shock at 1349 ft. per. sec. out of a Glock 34. This generates 501 ft. lbs of energy. In the 2000 Autopistol annual the Black Hills 124 gr. jhp+p had a velocity of 1362 ft. per sec. and generated 511 ft. lbs. of energy, again from the Glock 34. Both of these figures excede the figures for medium velocity .357 Mag rounds from 4" barrels.
Some full power 125gr. jhp Magnum rounds put out around 585 ft. lbs. of energy at 1450. One article I read did admit that most of the full-power rounds have been down loaded over the years and very few actually reach the figures listed above.
Some will argue that the G34 with it's 5.32" barrel is an unfair comparison to the revolver's 4" barrel. But the G34 has a shorter overall length that a K or L frame Smith with a 4" barrel so the comparison is a valid one, for me anyway.
Remember also, the SAMMI 9mm is down loaded in this country and the +P is closer to the original loading. Most high-quality European pistols are designed for use with the hotter loads. JohnH
Some full power 125gr. jhp Magnum rounds put out around 585 ft. lbs. of energy at 1450. One article I read did admit that most of the full-power rounds have been down loaded over the years and very few actually reach the figures listed above.
Some will argue that the G34 with it's 5.32" barrel is an unfair comparison to the revolver's 4" barrel. But the G34 has a shorter overall length that a K or L frame Smith with a 4" barrel so the comparison is a valid one, for me anyway.
Remember also, the SAMMI 9mm is down loaded in this country and the +P is closer to the original loading. Most high-quality European pistols are designed for use with the hotter loads. JohnH
Over the counter Cor-Bon Hunting ammo....357 mag, 200gr, 1200fps, 640ft/lbs.
Current Winchester data.....357mag, 125gr JHP, 1800fps, 899ft/lbs............357mag, 200gr Lead, 1335fps, 791ft/lbs.
Above loads are within the design parameters of the 357 magnum.
Not to be smoked in your 9mm pistol.
Sam
Current Winchester data.....357mag, 125gr JHP, 1800fps, 899ft/lbs............357mag, 200gr Lead, 1335fps, 791ft/lbs.
Above loads are within the design parameters of the 357 magnum.
Not to be smoked in your 9mm pistol.
Sam
I'm not flaming you Sam, but I think you might want to recheck your stats http://www.winchester.com/products/index.html
Their hottest defensive load, the Winchester Silver tip, is 145grns at 1290 fps. Better than the Hydrashok but not nearly approaching your numbers.
Their hottest defensive load, the Winchester Silver tip, is 145grns at 1290 fps. Better than the Hydrashok but not nearly approaching your numbers.
MTAA I am not flaming you but you are comparing winchester loads to corbon.Lets not compare apple to to whatever again.Look at the site being pointed out.Sam is using corbon specs.
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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
CassandraComplex
New member
Stephen: Actually, the .357 Magnums may have had an edge in your tests regarding barrel length, because an auto pistol measures the chamber as part of the barrel length. Counting the chamber, a .357 Magnum has at least an extra inch of barrel length over an auto. A 3 inch barreled .357 Magnum and a 4 inch barreled 9mm are very comparable. And, the 9mm will probably still be a shorter gun overall and carry more firepower.
I think it is only fair to compare modern defensive cartridges that you can buy off the shelf. That is all I would carry anyway, so handloads don't count.
Also, from a Glock (and most 9mm's), the +P+ is a very safe load. The Glock is designed to shoot submachine gun ammo which is +P++ and it will injest any factory defense load you can put through it. So, I am not worried about shooting +P+ through my gun.
I asked this exact question many moons ago and got no good answer. The truth be known, you are stepping on people's toes when you ask this question. .357 mag lovers are very insulted that you would compare a 9mm to their powerhouse...especially since you make an excellent argument (in factory offerings from comparable guns, the ballistics ARE very similar, and the 9mm is a much better combat platform).
The 9mm is supposed to be an "introductory" "beginner" "base line" minimal cartridge for defense. And, the .357 Magnum is supposed to be the "ultimate", rated even over the .45 and others in STOPPING bad guys.
So, what seperates the "bottom of the rung" 9mm from the "ultimate" .357 Magnum out of comparable guns using comparable factory defensive loads? 50fps? 100fps? 150fps at best?
The 115gr +P+ 9mm is rated top notch by the border patrol (they are forced to shoot a LOT of people and I respect their opinion). They claim this round is just as effective as their old .357 Magnum. Being that I have shot...no one...and they shoot people all the time, I figure they must know what they are talking about.
I still carry a .357 Sig though, just for that peace of mind and because of the above said points. (The border patrol agrees and prefers a .40 caliber over a 9mm, but they say that the +P 9mm does the job well enough).
Using comparable barrel lengths (especially because the .357 Magnum loses a lot of velocity out of a compact gun) the .357 Sig comes out at about 100 fps faster than a comparable .357 Magnum with factory defense loads. All that with more capacity and much softer shooting.
I think it is only fair to compare modern defensive cartridges that you can buy off the shelf. That is all I would carry anyway, so handloads don't count.
Also, from a Glock (and most 9mm's), the +P+ is a very safe load. The Glock is designed to shoot submachine gun ammo which is +P++ and it will injest any factory defense load you can put through it. So, I am not worried about shooting +P+ through my gun.
I asked this exact question many moons ago and got no good answer. The truth be known, you are stepping on people's toes when you ask this question. .357 mag lovers are very insulted that you would compare a 9mm to their powerhouse...especially since you make an excellent argument (in factory offerings from comparable guns, the ballistics ARE very similar, and the 9mm is a much better combat platform).
The 9mm is supposed to be an "introductory" "beginner" "base line" minimal cartridge for defense. And, the .357 Magnum is supposed to be the "ultimate", rated even over the .45 and others in STOPPING bad guys.
So, what seperates the "bottom of the rung" 9mm from the "ultimate" .357 Magnum out of comparable guns using comparable factory defensive loads? 50fps? 100fps? 150fps at best?
The 115gr +P+ 9mm is rated top notch by the border patrol (they are forced to shoot a LOT of people and I respect their opinion). They claim this round is just as effective as their old .357 Magnum. Being that I have shot...no one...and they shoot people all the time, I figure they must know what they are talking about.
I still carry a .357 Sig though, just for that peace of mind and because of the above said points. (The border patrol agrees and prefers a .40 caliber over a 9mm, but they say that the +P 9mm does the job well enough).
Using comparable barrel lengths (especially because the .357 Magnum loses a lot of velocity out of a compact gun) the .357 Sig comes out at about 100 fps faster than a comparable .357 Magnum with factory defense loads. All that with more capacity and much softer shooting.