Alliant's load data format is severely lacking. They just list the max. The Lyman manuals do a good job of covering Alliant powders and I would recommend getting one. Mine lists 4.4 to 5.8 for 115 grain jacketed HP. 5.8 grains is listed as having 30,700 CUP as the pressure. 6.0 might be fine but I certainly wouldn't start there with a lead bullet. You'll probably have much better luck with accuracy in the 4.4 to 5.0 range.
9MM, Unique powder and compression
- Thread starter MikeSRuth
- Start date
Is this based on your experience with 115 grain Blue Bullets and Unique with various charge weights?
It's based upon shooting a variety of lead bullets in a variety of 9mm firearms.
Do you normally advise it to be a good idea to start at max charges and compressed loads in 9mm?
It was not a max load (see post #11), and it was not compressed, as per what the OP posted. See post #1.
My comment was directed to the question about Unique in 9mm. Unique is a bulky powder and takes up a fair amount of space in a 9mm case. This is normal for Unique. That was the OP's question. It's not to be worried about because it's normal. Right? It's normal for Unique. Hodgdon has plainly said that compressed loads are generally not a problem and can even have a benefit.
Hodgdon says this about compressed loads, "Normally a pistol or rifle shellcase is considered full, or 100% loading density, when the powder charge sits at the base of the bullet when the bullet is fully seated. It is possible with some powders and cartridges to increase the powder charge slightly above this point, such that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder charge slightly. This condition is known as a compressed load.
Hodgdon notes in its reloading data if the subject charge is a compressed load. A full case, or lightly compressed charge is an ideal condition for creating loads with the most uniform velocities and pressures, and oftentimes, producing top accuracy."
https://hodgdon.com/faq-items/compressed-loads/
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So, you're generalizing without direct experience. That's all we need to know.
74A95 said:
Yep. Probably. But why assume when you can call and confirm? Anymore, with all the flak catchers they employ, it can take a while to get a person on the line, but it is usually worth the effort to hear what they have to say. You can get some different takes on things that way. I've only made them irate a couple of times.
74A95 said:
I don't know, and they won't tell me. About two years back, I talked to a tech of theirs who had run the electroplating machinery, and he confirmed load data was different for the Gold Dot and plated rifle bullets than for either their jacketed or lead bullets because of the hardness differences. A telling point is, their plated jackets can be driven as fast as jacketed bullets without special treatment. Also, if you look at the empirically derived start pressures for pistol bullets in QuickLOAD and GRT, they are 80 Bar (1160 psi) for lead and Berry's bullets, 150 Bar (2170 psi) for jacketed bullets, and 120 and 130 Bar (1740 psi and 1885 psi; QL and GRT, respectively) to model the Speer Gold Dots. So, again, the hardness is between soft copper and drawn jackets.
I have a 1936 book on electroplating that include how to dip baby shoes in conductive paint and then, after it has dried, electro-plate bronze onto them. So plating copper alloys instead of pure copper is a long-established practice. You just need the right electrolyte mix and the right anode alloy.
74A95 said:
You are correct about the 9 mm. I was thinking of their 44-caliber bullet. However, look at the nose profile of their 9 mm RN, and it is unusually long and pointy (compare it to their RN bullet for the 380). So I think my concern about seating depth may still be valid. I would have to get some to compare to be sure, but I like to err on the side of caution. Still, I expect the OP to be just fine with his 4.5-grain starting load.
Okay, but your description here is the difference between plated pistol and rifle bullets, and plated and jacketed bullets. Speer does plate to different thicknesses (0.007" to 0.030") depending on intended use.
My source says that Speer uses pure copper for plating their pistol bullets.
Also consider that the exact alloy makup might be considered proprietary information and Speer simply won't give it out.
One of the beauties of Unique is simply that it is essentially "unique" in that it works so well over such a wide range of cartridges and load applications.
If your most accurate ammo is with Unique, does it really matter if its dirtier burning or a bit less smoothly metering than some other powder?
Doesn't to me.
I will admit to not having used any of the new coated bullets, I have probably more of the traditional cast slugs than I'll use up in my remaining years. Nor am I a fan of plated bullets. I shoot cast, and I shoot jacketed, don't see the point to plated, FOR ME.
I get adequate (and even good) performance in 9mm from powders faster than Unique, which leaves me more Unique for other, larger cases where it performs very well. My pistols are currently .32ACP, .380, 9mm, .38SPL .357 Mag, .357AMP, .44SPL, .44Mag, .44AMP, .45ACP, .45 Colt, and .45 Win Mag. I can use Unique in all of them, but don't when I'm loading magnums for maximum performance, and usually don't use Unique in the smaller cases only for my own convenience.
One of the beauties of Unique is simply that it is essentially "unique" in that it works so well over such a wide range of cartridges and load applications.
If your most accurate ammo is with Unique, does it really matter if its dirtier burning or a bit less smoothly metering than some other powder?
Doesn't to me.
I will admit to not having used any of the new coated bullets, I have probably more of the traditional cast slugs than I'll use up in my remaining years. Nor am I a fan of plated bullets. I shoot cast, and I shoot jacketed, don't see the point to plated, FOR ME.
I get adequate (and even good) performance in 9mm from powders faster than Unique, which leaves me more Unique for other, larger cases where it performs very well. My pistols are currently .32ACP, .380, 9mm, .38SPL .357 Mag, .357AMP, .44SPL, .44Mag, .44AMP, .45ACP, .45 Colt, and .45 Win Mag. I can use Unique in all of them, but don't when I'm loading magnums for maximum performance, and usually don't use Unique in the smaller cases only for my own convenience.
74A95 said:
Actually, the start pressures I listed are all for pistol bullets. Berry's makes both thick and thinner-plated bullets as well and rates the thick ones for 20% more velocity, but the empirical software testing hasn't altered start pressure data for the thick ones. It might be a topic to test, but from what I can look up, empirically, the Speers behave as if they are harder based on those working start pressure numbers. Something needs to explain it, and I simply couldn't get alloy information out of them over the phone. Nor was there mention of work-hardening them, which would be another way to make that happen. I suppose they could be examined by x-ray spectrometry if someone had the equipment handy. Hardness testing could also be done, but my source for that has retired.
It sounds like you're making an assumption that the difference is in the plating material, when it could be the hardness of the core bullet that makes the difference. Is that something to consider? I have no clue.
In any case, Speer says they use pure copper for plating their bullets. My resource is their Handloading Manual #14. Page 729.
"Speer's Uni-Cor bullets incorporate a process that builds a true jacket through the electro-chemical bonding of pure copper to a lead core.
Uni-Cor technology is literally at the core of every Speer Gold Dot, TMJ and Uni-Cor expanding bullet. Of the 76 Speer jacketed handgun bullets offered at press time, [circa 2007] 65 begin with Uni-Cor technology."
Recycled bullet
New member
Seating and crimping separately is to prevent cutting, scraping or otherwise damaging the plastic or powder coat or epoxy coating.
Seating and crimping separately also helps those folks who can't seem to adjust the seating die to do both properly. 
Doing both in the seater die works best when cases are uniform in length.
Most important doing roll crimps. Taper crimps are SLIGHTLY less sensitive to case length variations, and a separate crimp die can easily be adjusted if/when needed as you're only adjusting one thing.
Doing both in the seater die works best when cases are uniform in length.
Most important doing roll crimps. Taper crimps are SLIGHTLY less sensitive to case length variations, and a separate crimp die can easily be adjusted if/when needed as you're only adjusting one thing.
Check your data !
I have Lyman and RCBS cast bullet manuals and both show max. loads with Unique and 115 gr. cast bullets as ... 5.7 grains Unique !
RCBS : 09-115-RN / Start load 5.2 grs. @ 1127 fps *** Max load 5.7 grs. @ 1244 fps .
Lyman : #358345 - 115 gr./ Start load 4.5 grs. @ 1025 fps ***Max load 5.7 grs. @ 1210 fps .
I've got 50+ years in this game and I honestly believe 6.0 grs. Unique is not a proper starting load ... it may not be a proper Max Load either but I worked up my pet 115 grain load starting with 4.7 grs. unique and worked it up slowly to 5.0 grs....at that point my 9mm Luger was happy feeding firing and extacting with good accuracy .
I have gone up to 5.2 grains Unique but saw no increase in accuracy so my Pet load is 5.0 grs Unique and a 115 cast lead bullet ...
Don't forget Reloading Rule #1 : Start Low and Work up Slowly !
Load Safe,
Gary
I have Lyman and RCBS cast bullet manuals and both show max. loads with Unique and 115 gr. cast bullets as ... 5.7 grains Unique !
RCBS : 09-115-RN / Start load 5.2 grs. @ 1127 fps *** Max load 5.7 grs. @ 1244 fps .
Lyman : #358345 - 115 gr./ Start load 4.5 grs. @ 1025 fps ***Max load 5.7 grs. @ 1210 fps .
I've got 50+ years in this game and I honestly believe 6.0 grs. Unique is not a proper starting load ... it may not be a proper Max Load either but I worked up my pet 115 grain load starting with 4.7 grs. unique and worked it up slowly to 5.0 grs....at that point my 9mm Luger was happy feeding firing and extacting with good accuracy .
I have gone up to 5.2 grains Unique but saw no increase in accuracy so my Pet load is 5.0 grs Unique and a 115 cast lead bullet ...
Don't forget Reloading Rule #1 : Start Low and Work up Slowly !
Load Safe,
Gary
I agree completely. First off, when any source only gives one powder charge weight, it is prudent to assume it is the max charge.
Second, even its its not, comparison with other sources should give you an idea , and I've got data going back to the 70s, some of which doesn't even list the 115gr weight in 9mm Luger. When data is showing 6.1-6.2gr as max for jacketed 100gr slugs and 5.7 max for jacketed 125s, using 6.0 as a starting load for cast 115gr bullets is NOT a good idea.
You may get away with it. Everything MAY be just fine. BUT, you can't count on that, only shoot tells us what is too much for a given gun and component combination.
Which is why one starts out BELOW upper end (or max) data and tests by shooting as you work up. You MAY find a lighter load does everything you want. You MAY find some kind of issues BEFORE you even get to the listed max.
You may find a gun that eats 6.0gr flawlessly. Or you may find one that craters primers (or worse) at 5.8gr or some other lower level. Which gun is in your hand when you shoot? Only CAREFUL testing by shooting will tell you.
No loading manual can tell you, no computer program can tell you. They can tell you what is LIKELY, but only your gun will tell you what it actually is, and does when it comes to pressure tolerance.
See post #11.
Found this article that talks about fast 9mm handloads, and even shoots the 115 grain Unique 6.3 load. There's also detailed information about OAL and pressure.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-9mm-loads/388612
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-9mm-loads/388612