9mm Philosophical Question

JUST A NUMBER

Yes, philosophically the law enrages me.

But, my "always" is a 5-holer, my backup 'always' is a tenner, and my wheels (USPSA, natch) hold six.
My 1911 (Caspian, of course) is an 8-rd-mag-only gun.
My Witnesses are all over the rd-ct map.

I don't care.
I thinking the first one will be enough (or one each, then a NY reload.....).
Philosophically, of course.
 
But you missed mine. :)
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Perhaps, but not likely. ;) I always read your points carefully, although I admit to not remembering that you had only one 9mm. That said, we all go with what we like, and that's great for me... more variety to test shoot at one of our TFL get-togethers!!! :D

The original inquriy was:
Would you buy a 9mm full sized pistol that you couldn't get >10 round magazines for? Even if that same pistol was available in .40?
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Somehow, the discussion took a rapid left-hand turn to blaming the design of the GUN, not the stupidity of our legislators. I find there to be advantages of a 9mm that I prefer over only a marginal benefit of a 40 in only one area - 'stopping power', which is the subject of never ending debate.

what bugs me is a fine design that's been buggered to inefficiency by meddling bureaucrats
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Heh, heh... agreed! It's the buggering that's the problem!!! :D
 
Why carry a G17 with 10-rounders when I can get the same number of rounds of the same caliber in the much smaller G26?
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Because the grip of the 26 is too small for me. When using a magazine extension the overall grip length is the same as the 19, which I own. The 17 fits my hand better.

I find a pistol that has an inch-and-a-half of deadspace in the lower half of the grip to be silly.
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Pierce Grips and Scherer have been making a bundle making "deadspace" to put on the bottom of magazines of short-gripped guns like the 26.
 
Being philosophical about the 9mm ...


Well, I'm in late on this thread, but whether a full-size pistol or not, one reason frequently cited by 9mm fans, right after "it's-easy-to-shoot" and "ammo-is-cheap," is that the typical hi-cap 9mm mag is more "hi-cap" than the mags of competing calibers (pre-ban Glocks excepted). Apparently, high capacity is an "advantage" here because either (a) 9mm users expect to miss alot or (b) the extra rounds on tap are a tacit admission upfront that they lack confidence in the 9mm's ability to immediately incapacitate a hostile BG in the first few rounds and therefore may need all 15/17 to get it done.

Yet even with modern HP bullets, the 9mm's "stopping power" (or, if you prefer, BG-putdown ability) is still iffy.

See: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=63621

But if even we assume for the sake of philosophical discussion that we're all limited to 10rd mags for ALL calibers, a full-size 9mm doesn't make a whole lot of sense for civilian CCW when more concealable pistols are presently available in more effective defensive calibers, in particular the 45acp, the 10mm & the .40. Hence, we've seen the demand since the early 90s for compact, relatively big-bore pistols.

However, I agree that having a gun you can shoot well is certainly better than not having one at all, and if the 9mm were all someone could confidently handle with reasonably accuracy, then I don't have a problem with that. OTOH, as Tamara can attest, with practice even thin-wristed females can confidently handle the "stouter" calibers, like the 10mm Auto. (So I'm sure some of the He-Men on this board would even survive a trip to the range with one. :rolleyes: )

Personally I don't see all that much of a gain over a 10rd 9mm by switching to a 10rd .40 S&W. And a 10rd .357 Sig is more of an expensive "lateral move," given the availability of 9mm+P ammo (the difference btw them being 150-200 fps depending on who's comparing what loads).

Bottom line: if you're going to move up the caliber food-chain in any meaningful way from a 10rd 9mm, then it's either to a 10rd .45 or a 10rd 10mm, the latter being the more versatile choice across a wider range of possible BG-shooting scenarios if you feel such scenarios may be looming in your CCW-future. Versatility aside, a 10rd .45 is just fine too. :cool:
 
Magazine capacity is a non factor to me.
I'm strongly opposed to the restriction, but it in no way affects the feel of the gun.
Still bugs me though that such a stupid law exists.
 
I think what really bothers us about the post-ban mags is the fact that you are carrying less rounds than you can hold, as someone said 'deadspace'. If your gun uses a 8-shot mag and you carry that gun then its okay as you have accepted that as the limit; however if you are carrying a G17 that can hold a 19-shot mag and you are carrying a 10-shot mag, come on.. thats almost a 50% cut in capacity.

Some people do not mind as they feel confident that in any problems that they may encounter, 3 shots should be enough to address the issue. For others, in order to feel protected, they need a box of bullets at their fingertips.

I fall into the latter group and my father into the former group and yup, you guessed right, we argue over which is better all the time! :cool:
 
There are plenty of compact 9mm guns available that perform very well to bother considering something like a 92f. The availability of full-capacity magazines is an important factor.

From a non-practical standpoint, if I wanted a 92fs because I saw it in a movie and it looked cool, who cares if it carries fifteen or five rounds? Some guns are just fun.

Forget fun, some guns just fit our hands better. A full-sized 9mm is heavier and provides more contact area with our hand and spreads out the recoil better. Someone who can't shoot a compact Glock might like a full-size.

I don't like .40 S&W guns. This caliber seems to give otherwise good guns trouble. I've seen lots of 9mm and .45 ACP H&K's and Glocks that run like clockwork, but I frequently run into .40 owners who have had fairly major repairs done. The guns just aren't up to the task... yet. This caliber kicks needlessly. A .45 will have less recoil and more power. Ammo cost for the .40 is about the same as for a .45.

The 9mm is only marginally less powerful than the .45, costs significantly less, and allows higher capacity (void where prohibited by law). If we want to talk big power difference we'd have to go to 10mm which is a lot more powerful than the 9mm, but not significantly more than the .45 (ie, I wouldn't sell a .45 to get a 10mm). Then there's the .44 Magnum in an entirely different catagory.
 
I don't think I would buy a NEW hi cap gun that only came with 10's, but I did just trade my son-in-law one of my favorites - a Springfield Mil-Spec .45, for his like new H&K USP 9mm. It came with 1 10 round and 2 15 round mags. At the Denver Gun Show this weekend I found 3 vendors with 15 round mags - at $100.00 each! That's an $80.00 premium for 5 rounds - I bought some 10 rounders for $20 each. There's something wrong with this picture. Anyway I LOVE my HK - my son-in-law is happy with his Springfield. I definatly got the better end of the deal - Anyway, I digress - Give me a narrower grip and 7/8 rounds in the mag & I'd be a happy camper, but I'm not an LEO - I'm a high school teacher & I can't carry anyway (at work, that is)
 
You know, I'll bet if Glock made slimline, single stack guns in 9mm, .40/.357, 10mm, and .45, in subcompact and fullsized varieties, they'd sell like hotcakes. The 9mm/.40 frame could be made REALLY slender, too...
 
The 9mm is only marginally less powerful than the .45

Explain please...
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Let's look at the size, we're talking 0.1 inches bigger. That's not a lot to brag about, but it's something.

The 9mm is traveling at 1350fps while the .45 is doing 1150 (both taken from Corbon's web site). 200fps is nothing to sneeze at.

According to the 1996 study by Evan Marshall & Ed Sanow which investigated the stopping power in actual police shootings, the 9mm got 91% while the .45 got 92%.

So, is the .45 better? Sure, but marginally so in both imperical measurement and in real-world tests.
 
Let's look at the size, we're talking 0.1 inches bigger. That's not a lot to brag about, but it's something.
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Well there's also the weight issue.

The 9mm is traveling at 1350fps while the .45 is doing 1150 (both taken from Corbon's web site). 200fps is nothing to sneeze at.
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Neither is an additional 70 grains of weight.

According to the 1996 study by Evan Marshall & Ed Sanow which investigated the stopping power in actual police shootings, the 9mm got 91% while the .45 got 92%.
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While their results certainly make a good bit of sense, their methods seem a bit questionable. The police shooting data is not a big deal to me. It almost seems irrelevant, considering the fact that if Officer Joe Smith shoots attacking felon John Bad with his 185 gr .45 and it kills him, we can't really attempt to find out whether that 115 gr 9mm would have stopped him with one shot. Likewise with Officer Jones has to shoot Johhny Rotten 3 times with that 9mm. Hard to find out whether or not the .45 would have stopped him in his tracks under the same circumstances when he's already dead.

My opinion, which could probably be easily validated, is that there is a considerable difference between a typical 9mm self defense load and a typical .45 ACP self defense load. Lets put it in a military context, where ammo choice is not a factor. Model of weapon aside, would you rather carry milspec 45 hardball, or 9mm NATO? I think the 9mm is adequate, but arguing that the .45 is only marginally more powerful makes me wonder what your definition of marginal is. Do I feel under-gunned with a 9mm? Not at all, but I will not have as much confidence in it. The bad guy will not care either way.

Sorry for taking things off topic. No need for another 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45 session.
 
I shoot best with 9mm, so I carry a 9mm. I own a G21 that I can shoot accurately as well, however I always find that I can shoot my 9mm autopistols just a hair better. Not to mention that I'm faster with follow-up shots.

I don't see the 9mm dying any time soon - it's an effective, cheap round. The reason I bought a 9mm in the first place was because I going broke from having to buy .45ACP rounds. Even the Blazer crap started to add up!

My conclusion would be that a person should shoot the biggest caliber they're completely comfortable with. Heck, if you shoot .50AE or .44 magnum effectively, you might as well carry that. Personally, I'll stick with my 9mm... it's what I'm most accurate with.
 
Note that the only full-size 9mms that typically sell well are the ones whose designs pre-date the '94 Crime Bill. People still buy Beretta 92s and Glock 17s because they can still find pre-ban mags at most gun shows or online. Even post-ban designs such the Walther P99 and full-size USP sell because a few full-caps were imported before the ban (although those are a lot tougher to find nowadays).

I can't think of too many true post-ban 9mms (for which low-caps are all that are available) that have lasted long on the market.
 
dsk:


Good point on the market success of true post-ban 9mm guns (i.e., of initial manufacture since 1994).

Yes, you still see, for example, a lot of "preban" hi-cap mags for the Taurus 92 for sale (I see a lot at gunshows), and the prices aren't really all that outrageous - yet. In fact, the prices for the more common "preban" mags have actually leveled off.

Anyway, this is fully consistent with the handgun-buying trend since the 94 hi-cap ban, and with the nationwide wave of liberalized CCW statutes also enacted since then, toward more concealable, compact, relatively big bore pistols (e.g., the G-30 and G-29, among others).
 
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I switched from my G17 to an H&K USP fullsize .45. Lots of reasons, but mainly the trigger, and the bigger bang for my bullet. While I am considering a pocketpistol right now for add'l carry flexibility I am going to miss the way both the Glock and H&K fills up my hand. Even with the deadspace I like it for that reason alone.

I guess I am lucky since I live where a belly bag is acceptable so I can more easily conceal and big rig.
 
First, if I had to choose between the same pistol design in different calibers with ONLY ten round mags available EVER, I would take a .45 over a 9mm if the price was reasonably close.

However, if hi cap mags are available, I would rather have a high cap 9mm than half the number of rounds in a larger caliber.

Since hi cap mags are available, I prefer the 9mm. I recently bought a couple of 20 round mags for my Taurus PT-99 for $20 each with S/H and two 17 round mags for about $25 each.

I price compared aftermarket hi cap mags before deciding to buy my PT 99. The price and availability of hi cap mags is important to my purchasing decision.

One reason for having a hi cap mag that no one has mentioned in this thread is the possibility of encountering multiple BG's. Criminals often come in groups. If four guys break into my home, I'd feel more comfortable with 15+1 rounds of 9mm than 7+1 rounds of .45.

In response to agpman, I think a high capacity 9mm is the MOST VERSATILE choice for me. I can choose to single tap or double tap multiple adverseries depending upon the situation and still have rounds left over. I am more likely to make a TACTICAL reload with my hi cap pistol than an EMERGENCY reload.

I do not assume I will miss more often with a 9mm or that my pistol won't stop the BG's. I assume there will be many, many of them. Lord forbid I ever piss off a dozen Hell's Angels, but if I do, I want to be able to shoot all of them not once, but twice. And still have a few rounds left over should more bikers show up.

I do enjoy shooting big bore guns from time to time, but my follow-up shots are really slow with a hand cannon compared to shooting strings from my 9mm.

I do have a thin frame and thin wrists. The 9mm works well for me. I can control the muzzle climb better than with a larger caliber and therefore get all the rounds down field and on target more quickly. YMMV.

In a close range encounter, speed and accuracy both count. I am faster and more accurate with the 9mm than anything else.

A final point, none of the hi cap mags I purchased had a serial number or date of manufacture on them. If large quantities of hi cap mags are being smuggled into the country or made illegally, then the ONLY result of the ban is to enrich the smugglers, manufacturers and gun dealers by creating an artificial premium for hi cap mags.
 
Why carry a G17 with 10-rounders when I can get the same number of rounds of the same caliber in the much smaller G26?
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I dunno. How many more fpe's can you eek out of a 1" longer barrel using the same ammo? Worth considering.
 
I carry a G-17. Since I bought this pistol in 92, I have hi-caps. I want a Colt 91A1 but 45 ammo is way more expensive than 9mm. The problem with my G-17 is the grip might be too wide for my hand. I wish Glock would re-design there frames & get rid of the back strap area. The grip would be thiner. I played with the idea of a single stack but the re-designed thinner grip would be better. So now I'm on the bubble about getting a grip reduction. If I get a gip reduction I need a second carry gun while the work is being done. I like full size handguns because of the barrel length. I'm thinking about a Walther P99QA. Another option is to sell the Glock & go with CZ 75B SA. If I go with the P99QA I'll stick with the 10 rd mags & carry 2 xtra. With P99 hicaps, $100 + for 6 more rds is not worth the money. If I go wih the CZ I'll get hi-caps becuase they are cheaper. Because 9mm are cheap to shoot. I'll stick with that rd. Because full size offers the longest barrel lenght. I'll stick with that. If hi-caps cost more than $50. I'll stick with 10 rds. Also the hi-cap ban may be lifted in a couple of years. Then I'll get hi-caps at a reasonable price.
 
I dunno. How many more fpe's can you eek out of a 1" longer barrel using the same ammo? Worth considering.
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Less than I'd gain from stepping up to a G27 or G33. ;) (I thought 9mm toters were supposed to be relaxed, self-confident types who weren't all hung up on energy numbers and bullet sizes? ;) ;) )
 
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