9mm+P+ vs. .357 Magnum
- Thread starter M1Rifle30-06
- Start date
Steve_NEPhila
Inactive
The real question here is, why? There are far too many variables to attempt to make a comparison. When one then adds the entropic variables of individual preference and performance, this debate becomes moot.
.38 Special has been stopping fights for a very long time and it has far less energy than either of the two listed loads. I am confident with .38 special, yet I do carry .357 magnum loads. Why? I can shoot them well and really do not care about anything other than having and being proficient with an effective defensive tool. That is what should be the concern.
.38 Special has been stopping fights for a very long time and it has far less energy than either of the two listed loads. I am confident with .38 special, yet I do carry .357 magnum loads. Why? I can shoot them well and really do not care about anything other than having and being proficient with an effective defensive tool. That is what should be the concern.
Actually Beretta says this:
"We do not recommend extended use of +P, +P+, or submachine gun ammunition
because the chamber pressure may reach or exceed proof load pressure decreasing
the major components service life expectancy.
The warranty does not cover the use of reloaded and/or hand loaded ammunition."
Source: Beretta series 92 Instructions for Operation
I understand what the OP is saying. Good discussion. It's hard to compare fps, ft. lbs and bullet diameter alone. Some combinations have street proven records, regardless of velocity and muzzle energy. When you look at the actual history regarding one stop shots you'll see that similar 230 jhp 45acp rounds don't perform the same, (factor in barrel length and other variables,) the same is true with the 357mag 125 jhp. Medium velocity loads don't compare with the original 1450fps loads. Makes you think how a hot load does in a short barrel revolver.
I like the Winchester LEO bullet testing. You see how 9mm 147 grain and 124 grain +P work just as well, if not better then, a 357 sig. Any of the major self defense calibers, with good quality bullets, work well.
I like the Winchester LEO bullet testing. You see how 9mm 147 grain and 124 grain +P work just as well, if not better then, a 357 sig. Any of the major self defense calibers, with good quality bullets, work well.
All this mess started out with the premise that the Buffalo Bore 115 9mm +P+ was somehow in the same class as the .357. In a 4 inch barrel, the BB +P+ 115 grain goes 1389 fps at 493 ft lbs. Buffalo Bore .357 125 grain goes 1603 fps and 713 ft lbs from a four inch barrel. The BB .357 is "safe" in "any" gun. The .357 is way "more gun." Again I ask, why even go there? And to all the posts that contend that the 9mm and .357 are the "same" or "equal" up to 125 grains, stop pretending. No matter what you do, or say, the .357 is more gun and in a different class, regardless of bullet weight. Acid test: Choice #1 getting shot with the death ray Buffalo Bore +P+ 9mm or Choice #2 getting shot with the "safe in any gun" 125 grain Buffalo Bore .357 Seems like there is way too much revolver power envy. Get what you want and shoot what you want.
None. Because law enforcement decided that high cap bottom feeders was the way to go.
Personally I don't like the 9 mm round. I will take a 38+P FBI round over any 9mm round. By the way. What ended the fight at Miami was 38+P LSWCHP 158 gr round. This is known as the FBI round. Even multiple hits with 9mm semi-auto did not end the fight. It took a 12 ga shot gun to slow the bad guys and the S&W model 10 with the above the ammo to finish.
That is why most law enforcement agencies either use 40 SW or a 45 ACP.
The answer to the OPs question in my opinion is a 357 magnum round.
Enough said,
Howard
ScottieG59
New member
If you miss, it does not matter which one you chose; if you hit, it does not matter which one you chose.
The best is not to miss.
The best is not to miss.
ScottieG59
New member
So, Howard, how many .357 mag revolvers, or revolvers of any caliber, do you see in officers' holsters these days???
Well, where is the push for the 125 grain 357 SIG coming from? Police long for that lightning bolt fight ending 125 grain 357 magnum that worked so well in so many revolver fights. :thumbup:
FairWarning
New member
roaddog28 said:
Hmm, so you concluded .38+P does a better job than any 9mm round because it ended the '86 shootout. By that logic, I suppose the .38 beat the 12 GA too.
Regarding the Buffalo Bore nuclear .357 Mag rounds, the eardrum destroying high velocity crack of 1450 fps .357 is what holds it back from a practical SD standpoint. So I would never even dream of using a 1600+ fps round without earmuffs, and I wouldn't bring earmuffs to a gunfight. Wouldn't be likely to have them on a given day either unless I was going to the range or to the country. I am more interested in the better 145s and 158s in .357 Mag for SD.
I find that amusing for two reasons.
First is that the 9mm NATO round is by SAAMI / CIP definition a +P round. CIP places the max pressure for the 9mm at 34k PSI NATO is 36,500 PSI measure by CIP method.
Second is that the Beretta is US military standard issue. Of course they did have that slide cracking issue in the first few years after adoption.
I hate to use Wiki as a source for pressure info but they have the documentation in order so you can chase it for your self on this one. Wiki
Is your gun rated for NATO spec. ammo? If not, I would stay away from the hot stuff. If it is, then I wouldn't worry too much about premature wear.
Crankgrinder
New member
Im with eldorado, Im in the same boat he is but I still believe the conventional wisdom which seems to be that the brass case of same caliber with more room inside of it (longer or wider) will always prevail specificaly in the heavier bullet weights. The original thread was about 9mm +p then it seems to have become .357 sig. Both seem to come close or even duplicate .357 up to 125 gr. and both fall to the old .357 in the heavier weights just like the .308/30.06 in rifles.
Addressing question #1 - No.
Addressing question #2 - (assuming this post is only concerned with defensive use against a human threat) That would depend on the projectile's (bullet) performance inside of the threat's body. So, maybe, maybe not.
One of the great advances in handgun ammunition in the last 30 years has been in bullet design and construction. One major problem that had to be addressed when ammo manufacturers had to solve when they went to light bullet at higher velocities was bullet construction. Bullets which were satisfactory at 1000 fps were often found to fragment or over expand, and have insufficient penetration when they encountered a body at 1400 fps.
No Fair Warning I did not conclude that. Also, I said the 38 +P finally ended the gun fight. After multiple hits of 9mm Platt still fought on. One of the findings after the shootout by the FBI was the 9mm Winchester round did not penetrate enough.
All I know is this. If I am going to load my handgun for self defense or home defense I like a heavier grain round. It may not travel as fast as the lighter grain round but in most cases penetration will be deeper.
Regards,
Howard
All I know is this. If I am going to load my handgun for self defense or home defense I like a heavier grain round. It may not travel as fast as the lighter grain round but in most cases penetration will be deeper.
Regards,
Howard
Woodsman60
New member
Come on guys, anyone thats ever been around any fire arms, knows weather it be rifle, shot gun, or hand gun, its all good. These caliber wars and plat forms, are GREAT for discussion, but really doesnt settle anything. Whats the saying ? A sharp stick is better than no stick ?
.357 load will win every time. The +P+ 9 mm load pressures, etc. are questionable... depending who made them, and the +P+ won't work in all 9mm handguns. Some 9mm guns aren't built for the loads, and others it will cycle the slide too fast and misfeed. So, depends a lot on "the" gun it's being shot in and several other factors.