9mm +P+, .357 Sig, and 10mm Auto

Besides the lethality of the round, something to consider in your novel is the practicality of carrying the gun. Depending on what else you have your character doing, this may affect gun and caliber choice. For example, pistols in 9mm using double stack magazines are capable of up to about 17 rounds per mag, while 10mms are single stack with +/-8 round mag capacity. The 10mm pistols are also larger and heavier. And ammo availability -- 9mm rounds are available in any store that sells ammunition. 10mm & .357 Sig rounds are much more difficult to find. And 9mm bullet and spent casings are much more anonymous since they are so much more common.
 
Jmortimer: for personal defense roles, no, the 10mm beats the 357Mag. NOT by a lot, and only with the very best ammo...but as a die-hard 357Mag guy, I can tell you the numbers don't lie. A 135gr Gold Dot doing 1,600fps in 10mm beats a 125gr slug at the same speed in 357Mag.

Where the 10mm falls behind the 357 is it's lack of ability to feed big flatnose hardcast slugs for critters.
 
In most case your hero will shoot what he's issued. For NATO members that'll be the 9mm NATO. For Soviets it's the 9mmx18 Makarov. It is possible that alternate world Soviets might have transitioned to 9mm parabellum as our worlds Russians did.

U.S. special forces sometimes still use .45acp. I don't know of higher caliber Soviet issued rounds.

The odds of a modern Western soldier needing to re-stock out of an enemy arsenal, are low.
 
A .22 shot to the heart will kill you just as quick as a shot from a .500 S&W.
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Just for the sake of truth and accuracy, a .500 to the heart would kill you faster because the heart would likely be obliterated leading to very rapid exsanguination/hypovolemic shock which will lead to mass organ failure and then death. But yes, shot placement is critical- a miss with a .500 does less damage than a hit with a .22
 
Jmortimer: for personal defense roles, no, the 10mm beats the 357Mag. NOT by a lot, and only with the very best ammo...but as a die-hard 357Mag guy, I can tell you the numbers don't lie. A 135gr Gold Dot doing 1,600fps in 10mm beats a 125gr slug at the same speed in 357Mag.

Depends on the bullet and application as you suggest. A 180 grain Buffalo Bore will do 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel and the .357 will do 180 grain Buffalo Bore out of 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun = 1375 fps. Shorter barrel more power better SD. So .357 more gun.

The only place to find the numbers you cite is Double Tap which, unlike Buffalo Bore, cannot be relied upon for their ballistics. If you discount SD then at the lowest end the 10mm will shoot a low SD bullet faster according to double tap which is not reliable source unlike Buffalo Bore. The 10mm gets close but no cigar except for shooting people I suppose but even then I'll take a .357. Bottom line .357 more gun 10mm less gun.
 
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The only place to find the numbers you cite is Double Tap which, unlike Buffalo Bore, cannot be relied upon for their ballistics.
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Hmmm.

You're right about that. DT makes good ammo but they do inflate their numbers sometimes. BB's numbers always pan out.

Now I'm curious :). I'll do some digging later on this.
 
The hot .357 tends to have the edge in sectional density and ballistic coefficient, and should have an advantage in range. The hot 10mm tends to have the advantage in momentum with heavier bullets. Top end energy levels are comparable.
 
Back to the book topic- for a good spy novel, while cool sounding rounds/calibers sound, well, cool, you might be best served sticking to a generic round like the 9mm. I agree with the posters that state that a true operative will be taking (and making) as accurate a shot as available, and in reality, is likely to be ball ammo. I suspect that of all the calibers mentioned in the original post, 9mm is the only one easily found in a continued Soviet nation, should the need arise.

Remember to do your homework, and if you are not well versed in firearms, don't be afraid to ask. Being firearms savy, nothing ruins a good read more for me than when the hero (or villian) "takes the safety off" a weapon that does not have one, or mis-references a model and caliber.
 
Here is load data from Hodgdon which are SAAMI spec or below for 10mm
135 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon HS-6 .400" 1.250" 10.0 1318 31,300 PSI 11.2 1435 36,900 PSI
135 GR. NOS JHP Winchester AutoComp .400" 1.250" 8.7 1372 28,400 PSI 9.5 1476 34,500 PSI
135 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon Universal .400" 1.250" 7.0 1284 30,200 PSI 8.0 1416 36,100 PSI
135 GR. NOS JHP Hodgdon Titegroup .400" 1.250" 7.2 1362 28,300 PSI 8.0 1459 35,800 PSI
And here is data for .357 at SAAMI spec or below for .357 w/140 grain XTP

140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.590" 16.2 1541 33,100 CUP 18.0 1685 42,600 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.590" 17.1 1597 28,400 CUP 19.0 1762 40,900 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H110 .357" 1.590" 17.1 1597 28,400 CUP 19.0 1762 40,900 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .357" 1.590" 8.0 1396 31,300 CUP 9.1 1534 41,000 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .357" 1.590" 5.3 974 15,800 PSI 7.3 1307 31,300 PSI
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HS-6 .357" 1.590" 9.5 1411 35,800 CUP 10.5 1539 43,000 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Winchester AutoComp .357" 1.590" 6.5 1164 22,000 PSI 7.6 1346 32,400 PSI
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .357" 1.590" 6.5 1218 34,800 CUP 7.0 1299 40,200 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 231 .357" 1.590" 6.5 1219 30,800 CUP 7.7 1378 41,900 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HP-38 .357" 1.590" 6.5 1219 30,800 CUP 7.7 1378 41,900 CUP
140 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 7625 .357" 1.590" 5.5 1079 21,700 PSI 6.7 1249 31,300 PSI
140 GR. HDY XTP IMR PB .357" 1.590" 4.5 966 20,700 PSI 5.4 1122 29,800 PSI
140 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .357" 1.590" 6.3 1262 35,600 CUP 7.0 1376 41,900 CUP

We don't know barrel length but comparing something around 30k psi you see the .357 has a distinct edge. I normally go straight to Buffalo Bore for my numbers but I believe you, like me, are a reloader and want to keep our fingers, hands, and face intact so we are unable to use the "Black Magic" that Buffalo Bore and Double Tap use. In the end there is no real argument as the 10mm is close enough, and if you must, "as much gun" as the .357. I like the 10mm and hope to own one some day. I think with the 135 grain bullet it is a nasty self-defense round and you get some fire power as a bonus.

If we go to 180 grain bullets for .357 we get
80 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.575" 12.7 1247 36,900 CUP 13.7 1308 40,900 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART Winchester 296 .357" 1.575" 13.0 1352 36,800 CUP 13.5 1396 39,100 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H110 .357" 1.575" 13.0 1352 36,800 CUP 13.5 1396 39,100 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Lil'Gun .357" 1.575" 13.0 1279 27,500 CUP 15.0 1422 34,500 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Longshot .357" 1.175" 6.1 1025 32,700 CUP 7.2 1167 41,700 CUP

With the 10mm and 180 grains we get this
180 GR. SIE JHC Hodgdon Longshot .400" 1.260" 8.5 1221 31,000 PSI 9.5 1287 34,600 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC IMR 800-X .400" 1.260" 8.7 1210 30,000 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC IMR SR 4756 .400" 1.260" 7.6 1155 34,400 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC Hodgdon HS-6 .400" 1.260" 7.4 940 22,000 PSI 9.4 1127 35,800 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC Winchester AutoComp .400" 1.250" 7.0 1119 29,800 PSI 7.7 1199 36,000 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC Hodgdon Universal .400" 1.260" 5.4 965 22,300 PSI 6.4 1122 32,200 PSI
180 GR. SIE JHC Winchester WSF .400" 1.260" 5.7 950 25,000 PSI 7.1 1150 35,600 PSI

At around 35k psi (and the .357 will take even more PSI) the .357 still out classes the 10mm. Without the "Voodoo" of Buffalo Bore and Double Tap the .357 is hard to beat. The numbers on Buffalo Bore put the .357 in the 750 ft lbs to 800 ft lbs range and the 10mm in the 700 ft lbs to 750 lbs range.
 
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Also bear in mind that pistols are usually secondary weapons, backing up a rifle, shotgun, or SMG; their normally primary role by an assassin or operative would be for suppressed shots, for taking out sentries or dogs.

To be useful in that role, the gun needs to fire a subsonic round. Otherwise, the suppressor will quiet the chemical reaction noise of the cartridge, but the bullet itself will still generate a small sonic boom.

If you want to go with a pistol that could be used both suppressed or as an assault type, you might want to look at an FNP-45 with threaded barrel. 15 rounds of .45acp is a lot of subsonic firepower, with capability to accept a suppressor. The threaded version of the FNP-45 also has raised sights, designed to be useful even with a suppressor (some call it a "can") threaded to the barrel. (Normal sights would be aligned with the suppressor's upper arc, and would not be easily aligned with a target.)
 
The .357 Sig really shines in sub compact pistols,so if your character uses a G26 or other sub compact it would show he has done his homework.

Edited to add I am pretty sure I read a post on here a few years back by a mod on this forum(tamara)about this caliber and short bbls.
 
hi everyone,

thank you for all your input so far.

I suppose explaining a little more may help.

I totally agree how a small mistake can run the entire experience. In the Ted Bell book Tsar he called it the .45mm gun, totally ruined the moment.

In this the pistols fit two types of carry. I am thinking either a Sig p239 in .357 Sig, or since I can do what ever I want in my reality 10mm, or a Sig p290 in 9mm +P+ since it is subcompact for a resistance type character to carry in the city for protection, and ideally have enough power that if he needed to reveal his location that only one shot would be enough to dispatch the foe.

The other type of carry would be as a side arm for elite forces inserted behind enemy lines and have the power such that were they to need it, as few shots as possible would be required to take out a modern armoured infantry.

Living in the UK, all I can do is read peoples reviews and stats of the rounds. I am interested in how the ballistic figures translate into the real world. I would call my firearms knowledge a level 2 out of 10. I know many of the figures, but as everyone knows the figures aren't the real world.

I get the idea of a well placed 9mm is all you really need, but I was thinking there is no loss in having some extra power, and am planning on the guns being used in a time that even the most well trained person will have their pulse raised, not an assassin hunting down their prey.

I hope this helps with my question. By the way, as I am doing the SU in 2011, I am still going to have them carry the MP-443 Grach, 9mm, as their standard sidearm.

Again, thank you so much for all this guys. I totally hate it when people get this stuff totally wrong, and I am sure I will get some of it incorrect, but am aiming to be as good as possible.

Thanks

Edit: The, what I will call main battle pistol, would be a 10mm blued version of the custom SVI Infinity based on this:

http://www.sviguns.com/showcase/i.php?indx=176
 
Well if I could create a reality, I would create one where the ammo was as light and small as a .22 Mag but still hit as hard as a .9mm. Moreover, the round would have the ability to function at range out of a longer barrel. That way one wouldn’t have to lug around as much weight and could use the same ammo in their carbine as their pistol! :)

Dang the 5.7x28mm does make sense lol! ;)
 
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