9mm +P+, .357 Sig, and 10mm Auto

M

monkofbob

Inactive
Hi everyone,

I am new to TFL, and so sorry if I am starting a thread that seems to have been done over and over again.

I am trying to write a story, and as I do, am going for perfection in everything, including ammo choice for my character.

I have two questions.

First, if 9mm +P+ has, effectively, the same ballistics as 357 Sig what is the point of the later? I know that some will say reinventing the wheel, but is there more of a reason, is it about the strain that +P+ puts on a gun, or similar reason?

My second question is about 10mm Auto. From what I have seen on the web and ammo manufacturer websites it is quite a powerful round, I have found 1.5-2 times as much as the 9mm +P+ and 357 sig. In my novel (it is a sort of alternate reality where the Soviet Union still exists in 2011) the character is shooting to kill, as in this is not for ccw or personal protection, but as an offensive round. Would in that case the extra power of the 10mm be a benefit to a highly trained operative who aims to kill?

I know that there are many factors in the mortality of a round, such as placement, training of shooter, etc. but it would be great if someone could help me out.

Also, I suppose side question, to any one who may have served in actual asymmetric warfare/special operations forces would you as an operator ever pick up ammunition from a fallen foe or their armoury (the way it works in Call of Duty and other things that train today's youth)?


Again sorry that this seems to have been done so many times, but nothing has quite resolved my issue of it being not for personal protection but, as I say, an offensive round.

Thanks very much guys,

Hugo

P.S.- While I am writing something that will involve a bit of violence and as I call them 'offensive rounds' I do not in any way condone violence unnecessary or otherwise.
 
Everything you need to know about handgun round ballistics ...

10mm-1.jpg


To answer your second question, sure I'd pick up rounds laying around if I had to. Of course, if I was shooting .357 SIG or 10mm, no one else would be likely to have those rounds. :D
 
Too frequently, individuals place inordinate importance on the "power" or the "lethality" of a particular handgun caliber (or even a specific load within a given caliber). While it is certainly true that some rounds are more effective than others are (the differences, in my opinion, are normally quite marginal), it is also true that: (a) ACCURACY predominates and (b) all sidearms are poor defensive weapons in comparison to most long-guns. I emphasize these points because any “highly trained operative” (to use your phrase) is likely to be a capable marksman and, therefore, is more apt to achieve fatal shot placement with ANY reasonable caliber. It seems noteworthy that “urban legends” suggest that many “professionals” opt for .22 long handguns to achieve deadly results.

Having said this, I am a HUGE proponent of the 10mm (and I carry a Smith 610 revolver almost daily, during the winter, as my preferred concealed weapon). The ballistics for the 10mm are generally somewhat better than the .357 magnum’s and approach the .41 magnum’s, which is especially significant for autoloaders.
 
A pistol is by definition a poor chioice for an offensive weapon. I would strongly recommend against a pistol as an offensive weapon.

That said 460 Rowland is a more potent round than the 10mm and can be had in a semi auto verison that holds 13+1 rounds. (Springfield XD Tactical with a 5 in barrel)

460 Rowland is right in the mid 44 Magnum power and yes you can purchase less powerful loads but even in a reduced load it is still potent. (not for the timid, think 45 acp with 40% more kick but straight back instead of barrel lifting)

I personally own a 460 Rowland in the Springfield mentioned above, it is an awesome pistol.

Lastly one needs to be careful with ammo selection because at the more potent loads even a hollow point may pass through the target and hit things or people you dont intend.....
 
As someone has already pointed out any trained operative would not choose a handgun as their primary weapon. Also, training and shot placement is much more important than caliber. Just for example the U.S. Navy SEALS use the Sig Sauer P226 in 9mm as their primary handgun.
 
Its better to think of handguns in terms of there ability to incapacitate rather than their ability to kill.

A .22 shot to the heart will kill you just as quick as a shot from a .500 S&W. There are certain areas of the body that, if you hit them, will lead to almost instant death regardless of the caliber of the weapon you use.

If you don't hit one of those lethal areas, then the affect of the gunshot wound is to incapacitate the person, they pass out from loss of blood, shock, or damage their central nervous system. In terms of incapacitation a larger handgun will incapacitate a target quicker than a smaller one. A .500 S&W will make a bigger hole and cause more tissue damage than a .22LR, so the target will bleed out quicker and thus be incapacitated quicker.

As mentioned, rifles are for killing, pistols are more for incapacitating.
 
Excellent! Thanks very much guys. I entirely understand the shot placement, and the position of a pistol in one's armoury. I just was going for a pistol round that was powerful enough to do the job required without being grossly overpowered to dispatch a person.

I understand the concept of a silenced 9mm, but I am going for a battle rifle vs assault rifle power version of a pistol, if that makes sense. Perhaps a bit more than required, but glad to have the extra.

As such I'm thinking either FN Scar-H or Rock Island M14.

Thanks again guys
 
Here is my take on it. I carry a 357 sig and I think it's a great round. Reliable, accurate, and powerful. It's also hard on the ears (indoor cqb sucks, dbl ear protection is a must,) and jumps allot in your hand. I bought a 9mm for my own firearm due to price and because it's a pleasure to shoot. I love 40 S&W and 45acp and I'd shoot a 45 every day if someone else would buy me the ammo.

British SAS carry Sig 228 & 226 in 9mm. I talked to one at training. They can't understand why anyone would carry something bigger then a 9mm. Navy Seals carry 9mm. I've seen Army Green Berets with Glock 9mm (though can't find anything anywhere saying it's an issued or approved gun.) Larry Vicker use to build 1911s and took part in the 45acp H&K production. Larry praises the Glock 17 in 9mm.

Also some combinations work and some don't work as well. The 125 JHP 357 mag out performs a 158 JHP on people, but not on animals. The 44 mag has a poor record of one shot stops when compared to common police calibers. Barrel length, ammo, what the offender is wearing all play a part.
 
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thank you Noreaster, that is an excellent point about elite forces using the 9mm when they have choice of others.

As a 357 Sig user, or any one else, is there any weight behind the claim that it can penetrate light armour, including some vests?
 
A .22 shot to the heart will kill you just as quick as a shot from a .500 S&W.
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Not even close..... A 22 in the heart may or may not kill you but it is factual that some have survived such wounds....I havent heard the same about 500 S&W but lets say its possible just not near as likely...
 
BGutzman is right.

Now a Central Nervous System shot - that's a different story. Caliber becomes less of an issue when it comes to incapacitation due to a hit in the CNS. Although I still wouldn't compare a 500S&W to a rim fire .22.
 
I think it comes down to what you can shoot well with, "realistically" and "on demand". Caliber is pretty much moot if you cant shoot and control your gun while multitasking, and do it every time. By "realistic" and "on demand", I mean just that, not just what you do on a good day shooting bullseye targets.

I was quite the fan of 357SIG there for awhile, replacing the .45's I carried for years with it when I first got to shoot some. These days, I carry 9mm's, and specifically, 127 grain Winchester +P+ T series. I mostly practice with hot reloads that fairly closely mimic what I carry.

+P+ 9mm and 357SIG are ballistically very similar. When fired from guns of the same type, like a Glock 17 and 31, you really cant tell the difference in how the gun reacts. The 31 does have more of a bark though. Now swap +P+ for generic 115 grain 9mm, and you notice the difference pretty quick.

Usually, you hear, and would think the hot 9mm's would beat the gun up more, but I found this to be just the opposite with the Glocks. My 31 was beating the underside of the slide up pretty bad, and didnt appear to be stopping, as I was told it would. A couple of my 17's, with a lot of +P and +P+ through them (actually, both with a good bit more than what my 31 had through it), showed no signs of any kind of battering, and its only just lately, Ive noticed that the finish on the underside of the slide is starting to show wear on those guns, where the 31 was battered. Still, its just finish wear, and not metal wear. So go figure.


While I never felt under gunned with my old .45's, I really do like having the added capacity (basically double that plus of the .45's) the 9mm's offer. Differences in performance with the major calibers are basically negligible these days, and any reasonable hit will likely give the same result, so why not have the ability to stay in the fight longer? Pistol rounds are bad enough as it is, add to it, shooting under stress, moving and shooting, imperfect hits, people who arent impressed by you and your fancy shooter, and are more than willing to continue when you think they should have fallen, and any number of other issues, simply means you keep shooting until the threat/threats are down and out, not the old shoot a couple of times and access mentality.
 
As to the ability of 357SIG to penetrate body armor: I have not heard this particular rumor. As you may already know, body armor is available in several "levels" of protection, with lower levels being able to stop most common handgun calibers, but being relatively ineffective against rifle ammunition. Others incorporate trauma plates and more layers of kevlar and other materials to increase protection for the wearer. I recall hearing that the FN FiveSeven, when loaded with the right ammunition, could be effective at penetrating body armor. Though I have also heard that, when faced with an enemy suspected to be wearing body armor, a trained operator will just go for a head shot.
 
I think an assassin would use a revolver so that there is not a chance of loosing the brass for the law to find. You could also shoot much bigger rounds from a revolver if that is your thing.
 
10mm is not as powerful as .41 magnum, let alone more powerful.

Loaded hot, the 10mm overlaps the high end of .357 and the low end of .41.

Case capacity will also allow the .41 magnum to use heavier bullets than the 10mm can handle.
 
10mm is not as powerful as .41 magnum, let alone more powerful.

Loaded hot, the 10mm overlaps the high end of .357 and the low end of .41.

Case capacity will also allow the .41 magnum to use heavier bullets than the 10mm can handle.
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I don't know about that. I think the very hottest 357 magnums are hotter than the the hottest 10mms. (Buffalo Bore comes to mind) and more hot than the low end of the 41 mags.

Generally speaking the 10mm has the 357 beat but the top end the 357 mag has more energy.
 
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OK. My carry gun is a 357Magnum, full size, barrel just under 5", 42oz, loaded with the absolute nastiest stuff DoubleTap Ammo ever brewed up: a 125gr slug doing about 1,600fps, with almost 800ft/lbs energy on tap. That's well into 10mm horsepower levels and stomps anything loaded in 357Sig cases. The 125gr projectile DoubleTap is using is the Speer Gold Dot, used by them and a lot of other smaller ammo houses such as Buffalo Bore and more.)

I shot a bowling ball once with that load, that gun. Normally that's a bad idea because the slug usually bounces off. Not this time - I split it completely in half and sent fist-sized pieces of the concrete core (that were in over an inch-thick shell of hard plastic) back past my feet from 20 paces out. The guy whose backyard range this was said he'd never seen that kind of effect from a handgun. It normally takes an AK47 rounds (Russia's 7.62x39) to get there.

Some of the best 10mm loads involve a 135gr Gold Dot slug doing similar energy levels or sometimes a hair more.

The Speer Gold Dot projectile holds up abnormally well when "over-driven" by either a serious caliber like the 10mm or a small specialty ammo house brewing up near-thermonuclear loads. The Gold Dot is the usual copper over a lead core, but the copper is a heavy electroplate on the lead, so it strongly resists core/jacket separation. As the lead spreads out the copper jacket forces it to hold together. And very high speeds cause two things: the hollowpoint expands much faster than normal plus you get a hard-to-define "slap effect". If you hit bone on the way in, like say the sternum or a rib, you don't just break the bone, you shatter it - in some cases badly enough to send bone fragments flying on their own highly destructive wound channels.

Now...what you do NOT get is "hydrostatic shock" in most tissue. Even at 1,600fps and a very blunt projectile, you don't get a "secondary shock wave" effect that disrupts tissue that the bullet itself didn't touch. You *might* get some of that in very delicate tissues such as the brain, liver or spleen but for the most part, no, that doesn't happen until you get into real rifle speeds, somewhere north of 2,100fps - exactly where is open to debate, I'm not sure myself but by the time you get to 2,600fps with the .223 rounds it IS present - bigtime.

So. The 10mm can blow up a bowling ball. The 9mm can't, even in the police-sales-only +P+ flavors that Winchester (Ranger-T 127gr) and Federal (HST 124gr and 147gr) are shipping. Not in the 357Sig, not in the 40, not in most 357Mag - only the edgiest stuff from Buffalo Bore Ammo and DoubleTap Ammo can get there. Whether that whole "blows up a bowling ball" thing will have a major effect on wounding, I dunno. If nothing else the hollowpoint is going to expand damned fast, and that alone is a good thing - in this case, paradoxically the "extra" speed helps ensure that the slug won't go popping out a bad guy's back and into somebody else in an urban area. The hollowpoint moving faster will expand faster, be expanded through more tissue and expand fatter, all factors that force it to slow down.

As long as the jacket is firmly bonded to the lead core that is - if it's not, adding speed will cause jacket/core separation and the lead core will rapidly shrink back down to the original caliber and is much more likely to go flying off at high speed after doing modest damage to the intended target. The Gold Dot slugs lead the way in terms of being "bonded" core to jacket but the Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T and some others aren't far behind.

Oh. One more thing. Because the Gold Dot slug is the oldest of these "bonded" jacketed hollowpoints, they exist for various revolver calibers - including those that are "dying out", like the 357Magnum. So for wheelgunners, the Gold Dots are the only ultra-modern slugs we have available - the development of the Ranger-T, Federal HST and others isn't happening at all for high-speed revolver rounds such as the 357Mag.

(Some will freak out when I call the 357Mag a "dying caliber" but guys? There's no new ammo developments for it and hasn't been for years, outside of the hunting rounds Hornady came up with in the LeverRevolution which led to the mediocre "Critical Defense" because they were most of the way there already. No new "police grade" ammo for the 357Mag has shipped in over a decade. Without the Gold Dot slugs, we'd be hosed.)
 
"The ballistics for the 10mm are generally somewhat better than the .357 magnum’s and approach the .41 magnum’s, which is especially significant for autoloaders."
"Loaded hot, the 10mm overlaps the high end of .357 and the low end of .41."
Why O Why - every time the 10mm gets mentioned we get the old "10 mm death ray is just as powerful as the .357 mag."
Once again for the 10th time, the 10mm is "less gun" than the .357 mag and it is "way less" gun than the .41 mag. Put it another way, the .357 mag is "more gun" than the 10mm and the .41 mag is "way more gun" than the 10mm. Why not leave the lower level magnum revolver calibers out of any discussion of the 10mm and just appreciate it for what it is - a good and powerful semi-auto cartridge. I would like an 10mm gun. Short of a really nasty critter, the 10mm makes a lot of sense.
 
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