9mm only bounces off bones but a .40 or .45 will break it? What? Huh???

B

brandon_h3

Moderator
The things I read in some of these posts really get me laughing. I am guilty of one of them, but never again. I have one thing to tell the person that questions the power of his firearm. If you think it won't do the job point the gun at your own head (not a good idea is it? think the bad guy wants that damn thing pointed at his???) stare right down the pretty rifling inside the barrel and ask yourself a simple question, "Would I want to be in this position if I was the bad guy?" The answer, more than likely, will be no. I've talked to several people who say the .380 isn't big enough, yet I've never read anywhere where someone used one for self defense and is now pushing up daisies as a result. I think having a GUN is plenty, if it's a .22LR fine, it's a gun for self defense. The chances of anybody needing to actually use their firearm in self defense is extremely low, and the chances of them running into a bad guy that will shrug off .38 inch holes drilled quite some depth into their body is even more rare. Some people would carry a AK-47 as their personal defense gun, if they could somehow conceal that rather large 30 round magazine.

To the people who say that "wonderbullets" don't improve one-shot knockdown percentages, maybe they should read up a little bit. It might shock them to realize that the computer-designed bullets really do better than the old style bullets. They aren't wonderbullets if they are proven to work, or maybe they are because they make people wonder how they work so well!! I will agree that shot placement is more important, but if you know how to use your firearm correctly (should be practicing if you have a CC license....this is a reminder to all fellow CC permit holders.....;) ) then you need not worry about shot placement, you have that down pat. You need to make each shot count. Thats my two cents on this recurring topic!!! :D
 
One of the best bullets you can get - is the Gold Dot. Its not computer designed. Its designed and made the old fashioned way. The only difference is that the jacket is PLATED on instead of swagged. Plating has been done for an aweful long time, son.
Nothing NEW about that at all.

I think your the one that needs to do more reading... Try some publications with out pictures.
 
Go to www.pistolsmiths.com. Some of the members there have seen the failure of a .380 to stop an aggressor. Also, on glocktalk.com, there was a thread about a raccoon who took multiple hits from a .380 and kept going.

As for playing the odds ("I'll never need to use it and if I do, I probably won't run into Mongo), think of this: the vast majority of us will never need to use our weapons in self-defense, as long as we live a relatively secure lifestyle and keep in Condition Orange. If we have to pull our weapons, we are already on the short end of the stick. If you have already lost in the game of odds, do you really want to take the risk that the 1 time out of a million you have to use the weapon is the 1 time out of a million that you run into Mongo?

Having a firearm handy will always beat being unarmed. But having a "real gun" handy will increase your odds of survival even more.
 
Please define "wonderbullet."

As far as I'm concerned, ANY bullet that does what it is supposed to is a wonderbullet.

As for failures of cartridges to perform, leaving the shooter dead at the hands of the shootee, there are plenty of evens such as these happening, from the Moros and Hucs in the Philippines killing US Army troops after being shot numerous times with the-then military-standard .38 Long Colt (about as powerful as the .38 ACP), to a police officer in Philiadelphia in the 1970s shooting a man high on PCP 4 times and still being killed, etc., etc., etc., etc.

"one-shot knockdown percentages"

Hum... That's a new one on me. Do you perhaps mean Sanow & Marshall's VERY suspect "One Shot Stop" work?

I've read it, so have many other here, and many of us find it to be rather unconvincing.

"Then you need not worry about shot placement, you have that down pat."

Oh, were that it would only be SO SIMPLE! Realistic training, such as IDPA, is much more important than just standing in a perfect Weaver stance and banging away for 50 rounds.
 
Reply

"Wonderbullet" is a quote from another post, pertaining to bullets like the GoldDot and Hydra-shok. To the gentleman who replied about the .380 not stopping every intruder, every caliber has not stopped every person that it was shot at. I've read about people who were shot with AK-47's and kept running. To the gentleman who asked the question about where to read up? Here, read this. It might clear it up a bit for you.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=345&intArticleID=1655

That article shows that "wonderbullets", as quoted by another member, are worth some attention. The Hydra-shok, without any opinions involved, in the .380 caliber, is tied with the Corbon 90 grain JHP+p in one shot stop percentages in REAL SHOOTINGS. This isn't an opinionated article, it is real and has justificiation. If you don't believe me read the article.

I think this replies to everyone so far.
 
"Real gun"

If the .380 isn't a "real" gun, do I have anyone who would like me to try out my "unreal" gun on them? I didn't think so. Unless you have justification for your comments, it's best to leave the fingers off the keyboard. If the .380 doesn't stop people, German police wouldn't use it. It's been proven. No, its not the biggest, or the best, but hey, for the size and recoil it's pretty darn potent.

For the gentleman who said a racoon had been shot with a .380 and not stopped.....what does that have to do with a human? I shot a beaver point blank with a 22 hollowpoint between the eyes and the thing took off running. You can't compare humans to racoons, that's the apples to oranges analogy again. The internal makeup is completely different. Both can be hit in non-vital areas.

As for as the one shot stop thing, that's simply some way to compare the effectiveness of a bullet. I have more than one shot in my gun, and hopefully you do too. I want the most stopping power for each time I pull that trigger, and chosing the right bullet will help me achieve that. I have some Russian AP stuff, but I don't want to use it because the bullet doesn't deform on impact. I shot it into a big rock and it went in about 8 inches and had no damage. I'll spend the $$ on the "wonderbullets", especially when it's proven more effective than a FMJ equivelent. Again, my 1.7 cents on the subject. :)
 
Brandon,

Glad that I could give you a chuckle, you liked my post enough to ALMOST quote me accurately. With that I say thank you very much and like said above I do beleive it is you that needs to do the reading.

That is a hard like fact that the 9mm has been known to richochet off bone, it is smaller, has much more funneled shape and is moveing at much greater speads than the .40 and .45. With that it does make a little sense doesnt it? Its really not quite as funny as your opening line suggests.

Also, nobody would willingly want to be shot. We as licensed CCW holders have the ability to chose anything out there that we feel will give us a slight edge. After all why would you refuse that? If you can shoot a larger caliber just as accurate as your 9mm then why not go with it? That is what I did. Carried a P-239 in 9mm for years and decided to give a G23 a try. Practiced for a while and felt confident. Now I carry a G27 every day of my life and I doubt I will ever be looking back. Its not that I think the 9mm is bad, I just find the .40 to be much better.

I aggree with one thing you said though, some things I read here including this thread does give me a chuckle.

Jason
 
Jason....

I didn't try to quote anyone directly, nor am I arguing what a 9mm slug does once in a BG, my point is it's all rediculous. If we start worrying about what a bullet does to bones inside a BG, I think we've taken this a little too far. We need to worry about learning how to use our guns effectively (not wasting ammo, really practicing.....for the gentleman who made the comment about practicing....I never said just go shoot and waste ammo, I said go practice) rather than worrying about what the slug does to bones. Whatever gun you use, learn how to use it! I shot a .45 and that thing rang my bell, and I didn't want to shoot it again. For me, 9mm had a little too much recoil and cost a little too much to go out and really practice all morning at the range. So, .380 was the next logicial choice. I shot it, loved it, and didn't feel fatigued after shooting it all day. At my CC class, the other two fellahs had .45's and their shots were all over the place, whereas my little shots were all in the 10 ring with a few hitting the inner part of the 9 ring. That shows me that those guys bought a gun they can hardly handle. Would you rather have a .45 and miss or a .22LR and connect? Think about it. Pushing all caliber issues aside, isn't hitting the target most important??
 
Why is a racoon relevant? Hmmm. Animal that small that's not stopped by a bullet that some will use against a human? You're right. No relevance whatsoever.

As for missing with a .45 or hitting with a .22 . . . I practice so I can hit with the .45, or 10mm, or .357Sig, or whatever else I choose to carry. I don't carry what I'm not competent with and have confidence in. My only concern isn't hitting the target; my concern is hitting the target in the right place with a round that has as much capacity for doing destruction to the target as I can competently handle.
 
That is true, I guess I was assuming that everyone that posts on this forum practices with their gun. We were not discussing practice procedures we were talking about the difference in calibers and if the 9mm stacks up.

I practice with all calibers but most with the one I carry (.40) to me the .45 has a pleasant recoil compaired to the .40, I like what the .40 puts down on paper so I bought one. Practiced quite a bit with it and now I bet I punch holes like you do with your .380

Nobody here ever tried to imply that practice was not needed, rather I think most here take that for granted.

Jason
 
buzz...

The size of the animal isn't important. People have been shot by guns that have dropped elephants and they keep going. I personally shot that beaver with what would be a lethal shot to a human and he took off running. That is why it is essential to compare apples to apples. Shot placement is more important than shot size.

Don't knock .380 buzz, someone sporting a .380 may save your life one day.
 
I rarely respond to threads like this, but here 'goes...

Brandon,
Methinks you're being a bit vitriolic here. No one is going to condemn you for choosing a .380 as your carry gun. You've stated that you can hit what you aim at, and that you're a better shot than the guys next to you shooting .45's. That is excellent:D . The age-old invitation to "stand downrange" and take a hit from any handgun round is not a logical solution to determining handgun effectiveness or relative "power". Many people survive gunshot wounds; in fact, most people shot with handguns survive. What we're dealing with here is a spectrum of scenarios with a million variables, trying to extract some "tendency" one way or the other. Everyone has an anecdote about a given caliber's poor or excellent performance, here's mine: while on safari in Africa, my grandfather witnessed the unintentional discharge of a .470 nitro express (soft point) into the lower abdomen of a fellow hunter. The hunter, rather than being reduced to a gutpile, was sufficiently stitched together 8 hours later to walk to the "cocktail tent" (well, this was 1955) for a few gin and tonics. What does this prove? Well, nothing. If the same shot were to be reproduced with a .22LR and the hunter promptly fell down and died, what would that prove? Nothing. Unfortunately, the only way you're going to have definitive proof about your particular gun, load and shooter combination is to find out for yourself when the chips are down. I sincerely hope you never have to find out. Until then, carry what you're comfortable with. You seem to be hell-bent on convincing the troops here that we're all wrong about the .380 or handgun ballistics in general. So what! Your confidence is betrayed by your desire to convince. You've found a combination that works for you, others have found theirs, or are still searching. Are we guilding the lily with so much discussion about caliber effectiveness? Probably. What's the Browning line, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?". I think that applies.
As to my choice? I carry a SIG P 220, not because it's the best, but because it's the best for me, and because I hit what I aim at.

Respectfully,
vanfunk
 
Ah yes, Ed Sanow, 1/2 of the famous (or is it infamous?) Sanow & Marshall team.

As I said before, there are quite frankly a LOT of problems with S&M's data on one shot stops.

Do a search here, and read about some of the concerns and the questions that both I and other members here have had about their "data."

I say "data" simply because there's no way to tell if it's really data, or whether it's a figment of their imagination designed to sell their books.

Regression examination of their published statistics have not been very kind to their methodology, having raised rather serious questions about the data.

Of even more concern is the fact that S&M won't allow examination of their data or their methodology by an independent third party. They claim that their data isn't designed to be "scientific," I believe is the word that they've used, but they certainly have no qualms about using that data to sell books and magazine articles.

Quite frankly, that's two too many potential problems for me to really rely on their data 100%

So, quite frankly, put all the stock you want in Sanow & Marshall's work, and believe it for what they present it to be.

I choose, however, to take their work with a very large grain of salt. No single individual is ever going to have all the answers, and given my concerns about their data & methodology, I really think that S&M are even less likely to have the answers.
 
Oh, by the way, where are you getting .380 cheaper than 9mm?

The ranges and stores around here usually have the 9mm for a lot less than the .380, which is probably due to volumn sales.

I just don't go through enough of it to justify ordering it.
 
Here's some real life for you. I had a colt .380 and had to use it one night to put a dog down that had been hit by a car. The dog was in very bad shape, internal bleeding etc, in a lot of pain. It was a 3-4 month old pup probably 25-30 lbs lab type. I pulled out the .380 and shot the dog in the head at 3 yds, maybe less. The bullet bounced off the dogs skull, traveled down the back of his neck, then shouldler and eventually exited out of the dogs front leg and into the ground. It took a second close shot to finally do the trick. The bullet was a Gold dot can't remember the grain. You can carry .380 if you like, but not me. Good luck and choose your caliber wisely, because one day you may just have to depend on it.
 
Mike...

Http://www.dansammo.com

I can get 1000 rounds of .380 for 90 bucks total to my door. I've not seen anyone who can touch that. That's about 4 to 5 bucks a box. Order in bulk......it costs less. It also tends to make you practice more, ya know when ya got ammo burning a hole in your closet!

To the gentleman who stated I was hellbent on convincing people about the effectiveness of the .380, it would simply be because for people who are looking for a CC gun, they'll read about how the .380 isn't big enough, and that's simply a crock of sh*t. They have no real evidence, they're getting their opinions from other's opinions, not from factual evidence. If a round has a 71% ACTUAL one shot stop percentage, it should be respected. The .45 Hydra-shok has a 94% one shot stop percentage, very very respectable.

Yes, the 9mm has too much recoil after a few hundred rounds are shot. The gun I shot had twice the recoil of my little .380. If it hurts to practice with, I won't practice with it, and I'll be more of a harm to myself than the BG if I don't know what I'm doing.

I may consider purchasing a .45 for home defense, but there is no way that I can conceal a .45 of any sort on my small torso. I can barely hide a .380 effectivly. I'll end up getting .45 for home defense and .380 for CC. I can feel it. Problem is I won't practice because it's too expensive and isn't pleasant to shoot that thing. This is my opinion, someone else may love recoil, but I don't!

I didn't want to start a war, just to make anyone who is looking into CC to consider the .380 and go shoot it, don't just take people's opinions that it's not big enough. For someone who's never shot a .380, seen anybody who has been shot by a .380, or been anywhere near a .380 to tell me it's not big enough, or tell me any kind of opinion is hilarious. I hope they never become car salesman or I'll ask about the car's engine just to have a good laugh! :D
 
bull...

You didn't hit the dog's skull at the correct angle. Any caliber would have done that. No way that dog's skull could withstand a direct hit with a .380. I would bet my life on it. My gun penetrated 8 inches of SOLID ROCK...from about 20 feet...and that is a fact. The holes are still there with the bullets parked in the back of each hole. No caliber works if you don't hit your target as intended.
 
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