9mm Nato or nonsense?

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roarshock

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Winchester "Nato" has small label "Target" of all things - not War, Battle, etc. Plus the back of the box claims muzzle velocity of 1140, energy 358. ( Units unspecified.) The head stamp does feature a tiny cross within a microscopic circle. It is also "backed by generations of legendary excellence," but fails to express precisely how. Have I been cruelly duped once more? Has NATO itself been corrupted? Perish the thought! Shall I turn to EU Contract Overrun ammo instead? I wish to prepare for the worst if this isn't it.
 
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This particular ammo might have been reboxed and labeled by the seller.
The only way to actually know what it really is would be to pull a bullet, weigh it and check the velocity with a chronograph.
Anything else would be just a guess.
I once bought a bunch of 9mm that had been reboxed and found it was sub gun ammo - mighty warm stuff with very hard primers.
Had a lot of fun practicing with it, especially malfunction drills and recoil control, and it was cheap.
 
If it's from a major manufacturer, it's probably what it says it is on the box. I have some of that NATO stuff, and it's not appreciably hotter than any other sorts I've hoarded (my experience in good condition, modern handguns). I do like primer sealant though. As I remember it's not more expensive than other ammo, so I wouldn't feel bad about a purchase.
 
Midway and Cabellas allege that this is real deal NATO compliant ammunition "Loaded to NATO specifications, this is the same ammunition as currently being shipped to American soldiers overseas."
124 grain bullet just like Ol Georg and DWM said.
 
I bought a couple of cases of an overrun back in the late 1990s.
FC 98 NATO circle and cross was the head stamp. Crimped in primer and after taking care of that very nice reloading.
 
The White Box Winchester NATO ammo I'm currently shooting has the circled cross, dated '07 and actually feels hotter than standard ammo such as Blazer Brass etc. Looks like, marked like and shoots like all the NATO ammo I've used in the past. FWIW; I bought it about four years ago.
 
"...tiny cross within a microscopic circle..." Is required on ammo made for NATO by any country belonging to NATO. Isn't required on commercial ammo.
The 'NATO' part on commercial ammo boxes has nothing to do with anything but marketing.
NATO spec is about pressure with a 108 to 128 grain bullet at 1,200 to 1300 fps with ~ 36,500 PSI pressure. That's considered to be +P ammo by SAAMI. Although there is nothing mentioned about the type of bullet, they're FMJ's to comply with the Hague Treaty of 1899.
 
I don't know if you have been duped, but can say I have used thousands rounds of Winchester Q4318 NATO 9MM over the last ~20 years. More recently, have shot a fair amount of IMI 124 grain NATO ball. Chronographed these two versions of 9MM NATO in a variety of 9MM pistols, revolvers and in the Marlin Carbines. The Winchester usually runs mid to high 1100s in ~4" - 4.4" barrels, 1200+ in 5" guns and around mid 1300s 16" barrels. The IMI NATO consistently produces about 3-5% more velocity than the Winchester NATO in the various guns I've tested both in. I consider both to be excellent, and they have in fact become my favorite types of 9MM ball ammo. Consistent velocities, both sealed at case mouth and primer, both have crimped primers,etc. The Winchester primers are much more heavily crimped, and I've had to remove the crimp prior to reloading. The lighter IMI crimp has not required removal prior to reloading. Both cases have proven very durable for reloading.

BTW, I've chronographed several different types of commercial 124 grain +P ammo in a variety of firearms too. The 124+P consistently produces velocities higher than the Winchester 124 NATO, but the IMI 124 NATO demonstrates velocities similar to the 124+P.
 
roarshock said:
Winchester "Nato" has small label "Target" of all things - not War, Battle, etc.
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Olin's marketing department would prefer for you to use JHP ammo for self-defense. It's arguably a good idea because of reduced risk of overpenetration.

OTOH for military use, more penetration is a Good Thing, because soldiers are more likely than civilians to be shooting at people wearing body armor and/or hiding behind structures or heavy vegetation. Also, chances are strong that a person standing directly behind an enemy soldier is another enemy soldier. :)
T. O'Heir said:
Although there is nothing mentioned about the type of bullet, they're FMJ's to comply with the Hague Treaty of 1899.
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Although I think you already know this, for the sake of being comprehensive, the Hague Convention doesn't specifically require FMJ. It merely bans the use of "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." Using FMJ is simply a good way to guarantee compliance.

Additionally, FMJ feeds reliably, and it's good for that penetration thing mentioned above. :)
 
I hate you guys . . . freaking thread got me curious so I spent way too much time digging through ammo cans checking out all my WWB. Unfortunately it appears all of mine is the plain Jane std. pressure 9mm "Luger".

At least I now know what to look for.
 
Thanks Rock 185 for the comprehensive information. Seems the Nato stuff isn't quite +P after all. Just wondering that pressure may not equate linearly to velocity. Velocity is king. Pressure is more of a safety thing. But can you get x velocity without y pressure? I'm guessing "no" for the simple answer. Price point may dictate less of a faster powder though in the consumer world than optimal for even ignition, efficient combustion, and thus consistent velocity, best accuracy. Hmmm...? Probably. So you may get a short hot bast with the cheapest option that might be mostly charcoal binder/filler, but more of a steady shove from the better powder. I did shoot this amusing "Target NATO" the other day. Didn't seem as hot or snappy as regular ol' white box actually, but the pistol frame literally vibrated enough to make my hands tingle. Don't recall ever feeling that sensation before. Shot some S&B EU overrun stuff every other mag to compare, didn't feel the vibe. All good. Both accurate but the EU is cheaper.
 
With FMJ bullets, I'm not sure that "NATO" or "+P" matter much unless it would be for reliability. Sure, you can use it for anything you want but mil-spec 9mm ammo is not especially good for anything else.
 
roarshock said:
Seems the Nato stuff isn't quite +P after all. Just wondering that pressure may not equate linearly to velocity.
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The pressure measurement protocols used by NATO and SAAMI are not quite the same. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

NATO 9mm is often characterized as hot ammo because NATO requires a minimum energy level, which in turn requires the ammo to be loaded to fairly high pressure compared to generic American FMJ practice ammo. OTOH 9mm+P is generally loaded hot because it's premium self-defense ammo and buyers are paying attention to the ballistics. Again, apples to oranges, but it's true that 9mm+P generally outperforms 9mm NATO slightly in sheer FPE.
Danoobie said:
The "NATO" marking is just hype. Sort of like calling a
knife "tactical" because somebody painted it flat black.
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Not true. As I mention above, it's required to meet a minimum energy level; together with the max pressure specs, this tends to make it very consistent. It must pass a drop test, which generally means it has fairly hard primers. It must be waterproof, which is why the primers are often sealed. The primers are crimped so they won't rattle loose in submachine guns. Similarly, it must pass a bullet pull force test to prevent bullet setback or the bullets rattling loose.

In short, it's high-quality, consistent, and reliable ammo that's more durable under harsh conditions than generic FMJ. Its somewhat high power level can make it a good substitute for pricier JHP ammo when practicing. That said, since it's FMJ, it not necessarily well-suited for SD/HD, and paying extra for durability may be overkill for casually punching paper.
 
What Chriscarguy said x2. It's a standard. It might be better for your application or maybe not.

I'm not sure how a person could be duped by the ammo. It's generally not much more expensive than the entry level stuff and generally much cheaper than "premium" ammo.
 
I buy the IMI and Winchester 9 mm Luger NATO cartridges whenever I find them at a good price. I have often bought the Winchester NATO ammo for only $1-2 more per box of 50 than the lowest cost, brass-cased FMJ ammunition.

The NATO rounds are loaded a bit hotter than standard pressure 9x19 mm ammo but generally not as hot as +P 9 mm Luger ammunition. It's recoil characteristics more closely match those of the 9 mm Luger SD ammunition I like.

All of the NATO ammunition I have shot has the NATO head stamp and crimped and sealed primers.
 
Danoobi, Not hype at all. In order to be marked with the NATO cross in a circle it has to be actual NATO spec. ammo. I spoke with a Winchester LE rep. about the Winchester White box NATO and Ranger tan box NATO marked ammo. He confirmed that the Winchester NATO ammo is the real deal. I mentioned to that him I'd chronographed both the Winchester white box and tan "Ranger" box NATO ammo and results were the same. He confirmed that the Winchester NATO in the white box is the same as the Winchester NATO in the tan Ranger box. Said the packaging was just meant for different markets.

It may be "pretty much", "big deal" and "so what" to you personally,and you may wish to believe NATO ammo is just hype. Fine, but factually untrue.
 
roarshock said:
Velocity is king. Pressure is more of a safety thing. But can you get x velocity without y pressure? I'm guessing "no" for the simple answer.
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Unfortunately, there is no simple answer. Pressure is very much affected by the burn rate of the powder. Stuff some fast-burning powder behind a heavy bullet that takes some Moxie to get moving, and you have a recipe for high pressure. The same charge behind a light bullet of the same caliber will generate higher velocity at lower pressure.
 
Maximum pressure in a gun means very little. What is necessary for velocity is a pressure that is high enough to accelerate a bullet that lasts long enough to push the bullet all the time it is in the barrel.

To demonstrate this lets use two powders that are able to be used in the same cartridge, Bullseye and Power Pistol. Let's use a 45 ACP cartridge. The barrel length is not as important as the powder.

A max listed load with a 230 grain fmj bullet is 5.7 of Bullseye and 8.1 grains of Power Pistol. Both loads achieve a maximum pressure of near 21000 psi.
The bullseye powder burns very fast and gets that pressure as the bullet enters the leade and engages the rifling. From there the pressure drops rapidly and is around 4500 psi as the bullet exits. because there is less powder (only about 70% compared to Power Pistol it is used up faster and then loses pressure as the bullet moves down the bore giving more room for the gases to spread out.
The Power Pistol load builds pressure a little slower but reaches its maximum pressure as the bullet passes the first inch of the rifling. Because there is more gases the pressure stays higher all the way down the barrel and as the bullet exits the pressure is higher. The bullet has been accelerated faster over a longer period of time so it goes faster.
The difference between these two loads is nearly 100 fps from the same barrel. There is more nuzzle blast and a bit of flash from the Power Pistol load because the pressures at exit are high enough to keep the gases hot enough to glow.
Going back to barrel length we can see that the power pistol round will continue to be accelerated faster even in a longer barrel so with a longer barrel the Power Pistol load will be even faster from a long barrel than the Bullseye load that has almost stopped accelerating the bullet in the shorter barrel.
The key is to have as much powder as you can and still develop close to the maximum pressure for as long a possible. Unfortunately If you go to too slow of a powder there is not enough space in the cartridge to build the pressure and the burn is incomplete - regardless of your barrel length.
To bring this back to the NATO/commercial ammunition you have to realize the the same limits apply to both loads. Military ammo is more often loaded for particular use. For example the 9mm loads for military sub-machine guns is loaded to higher pressures than could be used in a modern 9mm pistol. The standard NATO 9mm round is safe for use in most modern guns but likely loaded to higher pressures to meet the specification for velocity. Commercial ammunition is loaded to moderate velocities using inexpensive powder for profit and liability concerns. You can buy specialty ammo at a higher price that is built with certain characteristics.
As a reloader I get to choose the components I want to use for my situation at a lower price because I don't have to build or buy the brass. I also don't have liability concerns to worry about - only my safety and the safety of others from my ammo.
 
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